[42]

Hi!
I know that it is sometimes good to overcall a 4card suit. Yesterday I had a good one (AKJ10), but decided against overcalling and, surprise, next opp bid that suit (he had Q987x).
Since I am not experienced with 4card-overcalls, my questions are now:

1. What is required for a 4card overcall -> distribution, vulnerability, suit quality?
2. What are the main advantages? Leaddirecting? Push them out of NT? Pretend a special distribution?

Thx all
Caren

[helene_t]

Maybe the most important criteria is that you have discussed it with partner. I would say that an overcall is in principle a 5-card, the fact that it might sometimes be a 4-card is something partner does not need to take into consideration. This means that you cannot reopen after having overcalled on a 4-card since partner will take you back to the 4-2 fit.

Mike Lawrence recomends frequent overcalls on a 4-card, Larry Cohen doesn't. Lorenzo (Famous player from the Dutch Antilles) has a perculiar overcall style, according to which honours are everything and length is not so critical. He sometimes even overcalls on a 3-card (which is a BSC if part of the partnership understanding, btw).

When you overcall on a 4-card you normally have some length in RHO's suit since otherwise you could probably have doubled. This improves the chance that partner has some tollerance for you suit, and also makes it likely that partner has shortness in RHO's suit so that you can ruff in the dummy, which means that a 4-3-fit rates to be ok.

[zasanya]

Requirements for 4 card overcalls
1)4-3-3-3 or 4-4-3-2 distribution with 3 cards in opponents suit and dbltn in unbid major or 4rags in opponents suit.
2)At unfavourable vulnerability 7 loser hand or better.At unfavourable vulmerability
9 loser hand or better.
3)Suit should be headed 3 of the top 4 honors.
4)Advantages are : i)Lead direction ii)keep them out of a makable 3nt iii)competing for part scores or better.
5) A sympathetic and understanding Partner.

[Gerben42]

Be sure to read Mike Lawrence' Complete Book on Overcalls for this.

My guidelines:

* Excellent suit, at least 3 honors of which two are top honors (KQTx or better)
* At least opening strength
* Distribution not suited for TO double (this usually implies length in opener's suit, or, if you don't play Raptor 1NT, a Raptor distribution)

Example of Raptor hand that might overcall 1♠ over 1 in any lower suit:

---

[Flame]

First of all its a matter of style, you can agree to bid 4 cards freely, but i assume you want to keep your normal 5 cards overcalls strategy, therefore overcall on 4 cards should be :
1. always on 1 level.
2. have an opening strengh
3. have good suit.
4. have no alternative bid (usually no t.o because you are short in an unbid suit)
I would add
5. a hand that will be good to play in 4-3 fit.

[cherdano]

I would have come upt with the same list as Gerben. I think a good rough guide-line when vulnerable is: if your partner jump raises to 3 with a mixed raise type hand, you should have a shot at making it. When non-vulnerable, you might shade the requirements a little if you are desperate for the lead.

Arend

[Fluffy]

You first need a good suit, ,one from wich you won't lose a trick if partner leads it from almost any holding. Any 3 honnors normally do the trick. (Althou I've overcalled sometimes with AQ9x)

Also you need extra strenght, with less than opening values you are happy to pass.

The main advantage is to enter the bidding with a hand with 13-17 HCP that has no other way to get in, normally because your lenght on the opened suit is too long, and your shape/strrenght doesn't fit with a NT overcall.

[FrancesHinden]

It's a matter of partnership style.

I find it simplest to say that I don't do it. If I (or my partner) does one, it's a breach of systemic agreements (which is not to say it doesn't happen very occasionally).

Everytime I see a 4-card overcall it gets a bad result. Truly. I cannot remember a good result that came from making a 4-card overcall (rather than a normal result).

There are sometimes good hands for a 4-card overcall. It's jsut they are much rarer than a lot of people seem to think.

[mike777]

Marshal Miles recommends these 4 card overcalls quite often. As in your example often 4 major and 5 minor with weaker spots in the minor. Try it and see how you like them.
Over 1D:
AJ85=T=A87=AQT82
A7=KJ96=J9=AKQT3
K9=KQ86=J7=AJT96
AQ95=86=96=KJ853
KQT4=8=765=AJ843

OVER 2D WITH:
AKQ8=8=8753=AQ87
KQT7=6=AQ7=QJT72

[EricK]

I've never really understood why a lot of people who insist on 5 card major openings suddenly allow 4 card major overcalls. That just seems the wrong way round.

When you open the bidding there is at least a reasonable chance that the auction will be uncontested so you can afford to have bids which contain more options (indeed by opening a major instead of a minor you make it more likely that the auction is uncompetitive as overcalling is harder). When you overcall, the auction is by definition already competitive and it is very rare that you get the rest of the auction to yourself, so it makes sense to have your bids be as descriptive as possible.

Can somebody who favours 5 card openings but 4 card overcalls explain the flaws in my reasoning?

Eric

[cherdano]

EricK, on Oct 24 2005, 07:26 PM, said:

I've never really understood why a lot of people who insist on 5 card major openings suddenly allow 4 card major overcalls. That just seems the wrong way round.

When you open the bidding there is at least a reasonable chance that the auction will be uncontested so you can afford to have bids which contain more options (indeed by opening a major instead of a minor you make it more likely that the auction is uncompetitive as overcalling is harder). When you overcall, the auction is by definition already competitive and it is very rare that you get the rest of the auction to yourself, so it makes sense to have your bids be as descriptive as possible.

Can somebody who favours 5 card openings but 4 card overcalls explain the flaws in my reasoning?

Eric

It's the other way round. When you open the bidding 1♣ despite spades being your best suit, you will get a chance to show that feature later. In a competitive situation, you can either show your ♠AKJT immediately, or never (when you have the wrong shape for a takeout double).

Arend

[junyi_zhu]

42, on Oct 24 2005, 08:01 AM, said:

Hi!
I know that it is sometimes good to overcall a 4card suit. Yesterday I had a good one (AKJ10), but decided against overcalling and, surprise, next opp bid that suit (he had Q987x).
Since I am not experienced with 4card-overcalls, my questions are now:

1. What is required for a 4card overcall -> distribution, vulnerability, suit quality?
2. What are the main advantages? Leaddirecting? Push them out of NT? Pretend a special distribution?

Thx all
Caren

A lot of nonsense in the replies I have to say. 4 card overcalls are really normal to me and to many if you handle it well. Even the suit quality isn't that important if you have extra value. The situation you want to avoid is to overcall 4 card suits without opening strength. As long as you have an opener, a reasonable 4 card suit, no other suitable bids, and at one level, I don't see anything wrong to overcall with them. Passing is often losing bridge in my opinion.
some examples:
SKQxx HA DAxxxx Cxxx, over 1D, it's a clear 1S overcall to me and change that SQ to SJ, I'd still overcall 1S.
SKQJx Hxx DAx CKxxxx, over 1D or 1H, it's also clear to overcall 1S.
SKxxx HAK Dx CAKxxxx, over 1C, I'd still overcall 1S. If you pass, you'd probably
never have another chance to bid, or you may not know what to do if it goes like:
1C p 1H p
2H ?
The better your hand is, you lower requirement of your overcalling suit is.

[Al_U_Card]

A fine player, Marc-André Fourcadot (alias "The Fork") would often overcall on a THREE card suit. Always with a safe landing place in case of tr(d)ouble he liked it for lead direction and occasionally for practising his declarer play (forgive me M-A.)

We used to say "You know you're done when they stick the Fork in you.....lol"

[42]

junyi_zhu, on Oct 24 2005, 08:04 PM, said:

[snip]As long as you have an opener, a reasonable 4 card suit, no other suitable bids,  and at one level,  I don't see anything wrong to overcall with them. Passing is often losing bridge in my opinion.
some examples:
SKQxx HA DAxxxx Cxxx, over 1D, it's a clear 1S overcall to me and change that SQ to SJ, I'd still overcall 1S.
SKQJx Hxx DAx CKxxxx, over 1D or 1H, it's also clear to overcall 1S.
SKxxx HAK Dx CAKxxxx, over 1C, I'd still overcall 1S.  If you pass, you'd probably
never have another chance to bid, or you may not know what to do if it goes like:
1C p 1H p
2H ?
The better your hand is, you lower requirement of your overcalling suit is.

I play Raptor wich makes it -for me- easier to bid some hands. But in these examples I see that a 4card overcall is fine. Thx all for your replies!
Caren

[Chamaco]

The guideline I use should satisfy all of the following:

1) I have opening values and unsuitable shape/strength for other actions; in such cases, IN-QUICK/OUT-QUICK suggests immediate action if possible, even stretching, rather than "pass, I still have the chance to bid later" approach.

2) I have a GOOD 4 card major (HHTx being the minimum requirement).

Also, the feasibility of 4 card overcall depends on how much pard is aggressive with weak raises :-)

[42]

Chamaco, on Oct 25 2005, 10:17 AM, said:

[snip]Also, the feasibility of 4 card overcall depends on how much pard is aggressive with weak raises :-)

When the requirements for a 4card overcall are at least opening strength, a good suit and -in tendency- an unbalanced hand, then it should not create a big problem in this case, or? And partner can perhaps see (feel ) what is going on when looking at his shape and knows what he is doing and finds a sensitive bid. But maybe my trust in partner is too high here.

[Chamaco]

42, on Oct 25 2005, 08:36 AM, said:

 

Quote

When the requirements for a 4card overcall are at least opening strength, a good suit and -in tendency- an unbalanced hand, then it should not create a big problem in this case, or?

It's harder when the hand is balanced. :-)
It might be argued that passing often with a 4432 with a good 4 bagger is not a disaster, but I prefer to try to deliver my values at the level one, rather than see the auction die when opps find a fit at the 2-level, or to compete at the 2/3 level after passing.

Quote

And partner can perhaps see (feel  ) what is going on when looking at his shape and knows what he is doing and finds a sensitive bid. But maybe my trust in partner is too high here.

This can work, or can put too much pressure on pard.
By delivering our strength right away, pard will feel less pressure in many deals, and won't feel obliged to balance/compete with weak hand, trying to guess (feel ? ) the handtype we passed with.

[42]

Perhaps I snipped too much... I meant that when I overcall a 4card suit and partner raises with a weak hand it should not create a problem when I follow the above mentioned requirements. Partner may find a sensitive bid as well.
Therefore I personally would NOT like to overcall a 4carder with a balanced hand. When I am stronger (let's say 14+) I dbl, otherwise I pass and listen to the bidding. Let them play NT and kill them I cannot yet see the advantage of a quick bid with a balanced hand. That I have some points will be revealed in the further bidding. Perhaps I keep them out of an unhappy NT when I bid with a balanced hand because I showed immediately where my strength is and they find a better harbour...? That is my fear. Ok, if partner is on lead, he HAS pressure to find the best spot, and when I passed he must think, but that is the game...

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

AKJT is good enough for an overcall.

- read Marshall Miles Book, he discusses the whole thing
completly
- raising to the three level with only
3 card support in a sequence similar to

(1C) - 1H - (1S) - 2H
(2S) - Pass - (Pass) - 3H

is a no option, ... it is anti law, so should not
even be made, if 1H always shows 5 cards

- If playing Raptor / polnish NT, the need to over call
on a 4 card suit isnt that great anymore, because you
are able to introduce the mayor
One mayor reason for overcalling with a 4 card mayor
is to introduce the mayor, in search for your most likely
game, and because you win the partscore battle easiere
with a mayor

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pclayton]

I played with a p/u partner last week who loves to overcall on 4 baggers. We also played support doubles over overcalls - I kind of likes them.