[Chamaco]

As usual, I come late in noticing important things, so I read only today Jillybean's post:
http://forums.bridge...showtopic=10741

I have no words to explain how much I am upset about this issue.

This comes as a last straw:

1. quite a few of my friends that were trying to run free tourneys have already been boycotted by some private clubs in the past.
JB is only the last one of a list I expect to be longer

2. the possibility of playing in free tourneys has shrunk VERY VERY much.
If this depends by the fact that the TDs want to be rewarded, that's fair: but if this limitation is a consequence of the OTHER TDs that do not want the competition of free tourneys , this is very very bad.
I believe it is perfectly legitimate to ask a fee for running tourneys, but you should accept the FREE, UNLIMITED competition with free tourneys.
I think that PAY tourney/private club managers have no right to REQUIRE other free tourneys TD to limit the participation.


I'd better stop here, I just think that what's happening is very very bad, money is starting (or perhaps started already some time ago) to pollute even BBO.

[han]

I agree, reading JB's post made me very sad.

[pigpenz]

i dont run tourneys very often but when i do i just ignore them when they say somethig about competing against them big deal, bridge is bridge and when its free its great.

Lets face even the ACBL does it to take in $$$. even though I assume to some degree they are a non profit organization.

Even here on BBO to get a ranking not the stars, but the numbers and AKQJ you need to play in $ pay tournaments. Maybe BBO could start an incentive to give ACBL points for playing in tourneys not run for $$$. What I mean giving the equivalent of what you would have gotten if you were playing in an ACBL or BBO event where they give BBO rating points. It would probably encourage more free tourneys and then start giving people a ranking not contingent on playing in pay tourneys.

[Gerardo]

As I understand it, part of the fee in ACBL tourneys go to the ACBL.
Don't think they would recognize the points from BBO otherwise.

[pigpenz]

no one is asking them to
but give people an incentive to play in free tourneys by getting points that help establish the numbers and cards by their names for the rating system. It would encourage people to play in all tourneys maybe a little more than main club when they feel they have gotten their feet wet enough.

[luke warm]

well, for me the whole thing rides on something i've seen uday and others post in the past... i have nothing against free market expressions (ie, play in a free tourney or a pay tourney, play in a sayc only or not, a no psych or not, a no kibber or not, etc), however 'free market' doesn't entail bullying tactics...

i can't imagine jilly saying to another director "hey, how come you're having a tourney at same time i am???"... if a pay tourney does that to her, i'd think bbo should have a heart to heart with the people involved... after all, if a pay tourney and jilly's start at the same time, won't the "market" decide which it prefers? i'm sure jilly has nothing against that concept... i don't know why the pay tourneys don't feel the same

[arrows]

One has to admit, money does matter.

As far as i can see, BBO is not for charity. Therefore, when there's a dispute, ruling against those ACBL directors does not work for the best interest of the owners of BBO.

To be honest, in average, I don't think those so-called ACBL "accredited" director can do a better job in directing than people who are regular participants of this forum. However, they can generate cash flow for BBO, and this is very important.

But why can't others generate cash flow for BBO by organizing tourney? Why can't BBO offer its customer more choices when it costs virtually nothing?
Instead of using ACBL directors, why can't BBO accredite its own directors who can also run the paid tourney? Let them reap a certain percentage directing fee and generate more cash flow for BBO.

Not all people like ACBL rules, not all people can afford $1 tourney, and definitely not all people wanna get those stupid "master points". But almost all of us want good bridge. So why not eliminate the barrier of entry, give all qualified people the chance to help BBO, themselves and us all?

Let the directors decide their rules and how much they wanna charge for each player for their tourney. Why does the entry fee have to be $1? Someone out there maybe would like to charge a penny, and running tourney 24 hours a day, 7 days a week! some tourney may play 4 boards, some may last 4 hours, let the market decide.

Once the competition starts, bbo tourney will thrive, no one would even have time arguing here, because they are all busy directing and playing! In the not-so-far future, we are going to see 1000 people playing in the same tourney in BBO.

[luke warm]

well don't misunderstand me.. the more pay tourneys the better, since they generate money for bbo... i'm talking about bullying tactics only... and those should be disallowed no matter what the tourney, imo

[bearmum]

Gerardo, on Oct 23 2005, 12:48 PM, said:

As I understand it, part of the fee in ACBL tourneys go to the ACBL.
Don't think they would recognize the points from BBO otherwise.

I STILL don't believe that ACBL (or any other Country's system) would allow BBO (or any other online site) to run tourneys where players can accumuate "ACBL" (or any other Country's points) Cos it's TOO easy to 'talk' to partner online (by whatever method you prefer) and get a good result

BUT MAYBE it's all to do with collecting MONEY???????(WOW can I be so crass?? )

I think post might be censored

[uday]

None of this has nothing to do with the ACBL (in memphis or on bbo), but please, flame away. Don't let that stop you.

As they say on at of the sites I frequent "**No foul language, please**"

[Fluffy]

bearmum, on Oct 24 2005, 12:07 PM, said:

Gerardo, on Oct 23 2005, 12:48 PM, said:

As I understand it, part of the fee in ACBL tourneys go to the ACBL.
Don't think they would recognize the points from BBO otherwise.

I STILL don't believe that ACBL (or any other Country's system) would allow BBO (or any other online site) to run tourneys where players can accumuate "ACBL" (or any other Country's points) Cos it's TOO easy to 'talk' to partner online (by whatever method you prefer) and get a good result

BUT MAYBE it's all to do with collecting MONEY???????(WOW can I be so crass?? )

I think post might be censored

They won't censore the truth, luckilly we don't have such moderators

[uday]

Quote

They won't censore the truth, luckilly we don't have such moderators

You have at least one. "Truth" (whatever that is) is not a sufficient or even relevant shield against moderation (or, if you please, censorship).

Anything sufficiently off topic or sufficiently abusive or sufficiently devoid of content can and will be tossed. In addition, we will occasionally go thru the older posts and toss the ones we feel dont belong in the archive.

[Al_U_Card]

luke warm, on Oct 24 2005, 05:37 AM, said:

well don't misunderstand me.. the more pay tourneys the better, since they generate money for bbo... i'm talking about bullying tactics only... and those should be disallowed no matter what the tourney, imo

I agree 100%. Money or power incites people to "protect" their interests by fair means or foul. Masterpoints/cash prizes/BBO ratings notwithstanding, as long as BBO acts fairly who can complain? Don't patronize those you don't like and support those you do like. Start your own free tourneys and get BBO's help if you are being bullied. When BBO stops acting properly, leave the site.

Isn't a free market democracy a fun place to live in?

[pigpenz]

I tried to get ACBL to let me run a full 26 board tourner, and offered to direct for free Gweny wouldnt even return my mail I didnth think it was very professional of her but maybe she had to protect the interest of other directors. I hear they make $1 table for 12 boards now some of the games have 40-50 tables pretty good for watching a computer screen and kibbing


And I agree that there are probably people on the forum who would be better suited to direct....but thats my two cents worth.

Sure people can chat with mirc, im and all that but the thing that the ACBL is selling is not the competition but the masterpoints, has been and always will be.

[inquiry]

There is a long line of people wanting to directing ACBL tourneys. There are a number of requirements, including....

1) Right temperment
2) Certified ACBL director thingee
3) the ability to get along with other ACBL directors.

I suspect because of the number in line ahead of you, you will always be turned down. I suspect the idea of not paying one or more ACBL directors would cause a mutiny among the others. And no doubt posting public things like this will make you fall outside of item 1, and 3 even if you happened to satisfy item number 3. If I was gweny, i would have turned down your offer as well.

[inquiry]

Free tournments are a pain to run for verry little enjoyment. People complain about everything. I am not even sure it is worth the money paid to people to run them professionally. I can see why anyone would get tired to do it. I was one of the early TD;s. I don;t run them anymore. No one threatened me. No one bullied me. The "average" customer turned me off to it.

Now for Jilly. I suspect it was a combination of bullying (illegal and punishable btw) and player behavior. But there is some types of intimidation that, oddly enough, seems to be legal. Imagine if you will that the director frequently playes in a tournment run by "player X" or in a private club owned by "player X". Then player X could express his/her displeasure with the tournment and ask that director not to run it against player X's tourneys, or they would be blacklisted from the club or tournments.

Now then, if you are directing for fun occassionally, would you want to lose membership in a good club or a ability to play in a regular, good tourney? It is probalby not worth it. But what is BBO yellows to do? Club and directors get to decide who can and can not use their clubs/tourneys. It is a catch 22.

Ben

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Oct 26 2005, 01:42 AM, said:

Free tournments are a pain to run for verry little enjoyment. People complain about everything. I am not even sure it is worth the money paid to people to run them professionally. I can see why anyone would get tired to do it. I was one of the early TD;s. I don;t run them anymore. No one threatened me. No one bullied me. The "average" customer turned me off to it.

Ben,
this is of course normal.

If the number of free tourneys is shrinking because of this (people giving up because tired or switching to running pay tourneys to at least get some revenue) , well, it's more than legitimate, I would do the same.


However, there were more than one episodes of pay TDs trying to discourage volunteers.
This last popint was the issue I was raising.

As many others pointed out, I think that pay tourneys are not "evil", but they should accept competition of other tourneys and offer some added values for the fee they ask.
Then the market decides.

[pigpenz]

well originallly the idea was to see if there was a willingness to for people to play in a 26 board matchi instead of these 12 boarders which seem to promote alot of swinging due to the shortness of them....i guess well never know will we.

[pigpenz]

inquiry, on Oct 25 2005, 08:32 PM, said:

There is a long line of people wanting to directing ACBL tourneys. There are a number of requirements, including....

1) Right temperment
2) Certified ACBL director thingee
3) the ability to get along with other ACBL directors.

I suspect because of the number in line ahead of you, you will always be turned down. I suspect the idea of not paying one or more ACBL directors would cause a mutiny among the others. And no doubt posting public things like this will make you fall outside of item 1, and 3 even if you happened to satisfy item number 3. If I was gweny, i would have turned down your offer as well.

Personally posting this is part of the discussion...in towns there are often competing ACBL clubs running games against each all of the time....some people like to go where the competition is the easiest others like to go where the competition is the best.

As posted in earlier discussions on the fourm some people would like a long game some dont because of the time element. If someone is a certified ACBL director and wanted to run an ACBL game what difference would it make? The money from the tourney would still go to BBO for the entry fees. IF someone wanted to donate their time to see if a full 26 board game would fly would seem like a good idea to me...it promotes good bridge and that is what we are here for.

If someone wanted to run an ACBL game where all players had to have say 2500MP+ like a super flight A event that would be good for bridge too, thats what its all about not protecting someones turf thats the same thing the pay directors are doing to people running free games against their pay tourneys!

So Ben you are really saying the Gweny is protecting the $$ that her directors get when they run the ACBL games.