[pclayton]

Here's a hand thats been floating around the net:

All Vul, IMPs. RHO opens a weak 2♠ as dealer (agressive, but not prone to psyching). You hold:

Scoring: IMP

---

Your call?

[P_Marlowe]

Dbl.

Lets see what develops, 3NT is probably the
more practical bid, but ... somehow I have
to get the message across, that I have
22HCP.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[awm]

I also vote for 3NT, not seeing this as much of a problem. Looking at responses from others, it seems like there are two main issues in this hand.

1. How likely is 3NT to make? Some of this depends on whether you expect RHO to have outside cards. Is he more likely to preempt on JT9xxx and out, or on JT9xxx and a side ace and king? My belief is that less defense makes a better preempt, and that 3NT is much more likely to make than go down, but I could be wrong on either count.

2. What is the difference between a direct 3NT and double followed by 3NT? Most people seem to agree that double followed by 3NT indicates some interest in playing the hand in hearts (a few people would say X then 3NT shows a better hand, but this is a minority treatment as best I can tell). So the question is, what is "interest in playing in hearts"? If you bid a direct 3NT should partner pull with 6 decent hearts and out, or leave it in? If you double and bid 3NT, should partner ever pull to a five card heart suit, or only with six? My view is that double followed by 3NT normally shows three hearts, whereas a direct 3NT shows one or two. The reasons include: (1) partner may bid 4♥ directly over the double, which puts me in a tough spot with only two hearts (if partner has a weakish hand with a lot of hearts, I need to pass -- if partner has an eleven-count with only four hearts I'd much rather make 6NT then go down in a 4-2 fit), (2) I may have to rebid 3NT over partner's 2NT lebensohl even with four hearts, and if partner can't remove this to 4♥ with five we could miss a nine card fit, (3) I believe it is often right to play in 4♥ when partner has six good hearts and out, even if my hand looks like a running minor+spade stop+stiff heart (usually partner provides several more tricks in hearts than in 3NT so it's only wrong to be in hearts if I have exactly four top losers, which is rare).

[HeartA]

Jlall, on Oct 10 2005, 03:59 PM, said:

right, X then 3N is more flexible (I.E. more interest in other contracts which would mainly mean hearts).

X and then 3NT.

[Double !]

3NT
need a few cards from P or a suit that I can set up and reach. I have the strength, hopefully P has the shape.

DHL

[pclayton]

As Adam mentioned, the level of heart tolerance for x / 3N is a big part of this problem.

For a direct 3N, I would expect 1 or 2 hearts. For a double followed by 3N over 3♥ (or 2N--> 3♥), I would expect 3♥'s . Pard should be able to pull 3N with most 5 card heart suits if I double 1st.

Additionally, pard should be able to jump to 4♥ comfortably if I double 1st with the appropriate hand.

Therefore, if this hand is worth 3N, I think I should bid it now. Certainly with a 6 bagger, pard can still pull.

[luke warm]

i'd x first... partner hasn't bid yet and i can easily envision at *least* a small slam.. over 3h i can bid 3nt, over 4h i can bid 4nt rkc, eyeing 6/7 nt

[MickyB]

Sorry for drifting off the subject, just remembered there is something I've never been quite sure of...After 2S-X-P, can advancer with GF values get pard to bid 3N without four card support and 4H with four card support? Does leb work similarly to 1N-2S-3S?

[pclayton]

MickyB, on Oct 10 2005, 03:54 PM, said:

Sorry for drifting off the subject, just remembered there is something I've never been quite sure of...After 2S-X-P, can advancer with GF values get pard to bid 3N without four card support and 4H with four card support? Does leb work similarly to 1N-2S-3S?

Yes, pretty much.

2♠ - dbl - pass - 3♠ denies a spade stop and asks for 4♥

2♠ - dbl - pass - 3N denies a spade stop. Dblr scrambles out without one. This one's always forgotten.

2♠ - dbl - pass - 2N
pass - 3♣ - pass - 3♠ shows a spade stop and asks for 4♥

2♠ - dbl - pass - 2N
pass - 3♣ - pass - 3N shows a spade stop and is to play

[kfgauss]

pclayton, on Oct 11 2005, 12:02 AM, said:

2♠ - dbl - pass - 3N denies a spade stop. Dblr scrambles out without one. This one's always forgotten.

[snip]

2♠ - dbl - pass - 2N
pass - 3♣ - pass - 3N shows a spade stop and is to play

I've always thought the first sequence shows a weak/partial stopper and the second one shows a good stopper and that we just don't bid notrump opposite a takeout double without a stopper as we don't expect a stopper from partner. Perhaps your approach is good when partner does happen to have Kx or whatever, though (and I don't claim that my way is standard).

Andy

[awm]

While the methods Phil describes are how I'd play lebensohl over a 1NT opening and interference, they are definitely not what I would think is standard over a weak two bid and a double. The issue is that when partner opens 1NT, he has a balanced hand, could have as few as two hearts and has very limited strength. Thus it makes sense that: (1) Partner can pretty much determine the proper level (2) Partner will usually be correct in assuming opener has a stopper (3) Partner needs to check back for a heart fit with only four. In contrast, the double of 2♠ is often an unbalanced hand, almost always has at least three hearts (often four), and has unlimited strength. Thus: (1) No way partner can determine the level all the time by himself, doubler could have extras (2) Doubler rarely has a stopper, singleton is more likely than a strong 3-4 card holding (3) Partner doesn't really need to check back for a heart fit. Thus I tend to play advancer's:

3♠ = either any very slammish hand (planning to bid a suit next) or a good hand with no clear place to play. Often this is a hand with game values, something like (23)44 shape and no stopper in spades.

2NT then 3♠ = mild slam interest often with both minors, but guaranteeing a spade stopper and wanting to play 3NT if partner is minimum.

3NT = to play

2NT, then 3NT = basically to play, but some further interest if doubler has extras (usually doubler would show this by not accepting the 3♣ puppet).

With four hearts I would generally bid one of: (1) 2NT then 3♥ (2) 3♥ directly (3) 4♥ directly (4) 3♠ then 4♥ (in increasing order of strength). Note that if partner holds only three hearts and good stuff in spades, I would not expect a double. If partner has something like Ax in spades there is a good chance that 4♥ will be better than 3NT, or that 3NT has to be played from my side anyway. Certainly I would never try to play in 3NT holding four hearts and two small spades in this auction.

[han]

Very tempting to pass. We really have 6 tricks. Partner plus the queen of hearts must somehow deliver the other 3 tricks. I wonder if this is odds on. If not I think that passing is better, I expect this two or three tricks.

I'm not worried about missing slam. If partner has the goods then partner will double and the penalty should be gooood.

Although I agree with awm that no side cards is probably better as a purely preemptive bid, most people (or perhaps I should say many people) who play weak 2's play them somewhat constructive. So I expect RHO to have 4-9 pts outside of spades, and there is not much left for partner.


I'm afraid that I'd just bid 3NT at the table, but I think pass is better.

[cherdano]

I voted pass. If partner cannot balance, my guess is that game is about 50%. (The potential of my hand really seeems limited to 6 tricks.) This seems a wash IMP-wise -- if we make 3NT, then we probably set it 3, so we gain 300. If we do not make it, we go down 100-200(300), and lose out the plus of around (100)200.
However, if partner is strong enough to balanced with a double, we gain a lot by passing. And if he balances with an overcall, we still get to our game.

Arend

[Fluffy]

Double because we are too strrogn for direct 3NT

[Winstonm]

Although I hate to tuck tail with this much hand, I really don't see where our tricks are coming from. On balance, RHO holds around 8 so that leaves an average of 5 each for LHO and partner - unless partner holds a long suit I can't find any tricks for 3N.

I think here pass is the long term winning action - but the losses, when they occur, will be large.

Winston

[adhoc3]

I hesitated for a long time and passed.....
PD hesitated a long time and dbled....
...... we made +1400, and opps called for TD.....