[haver]

in uncontested auction:
a.) 1Cl - pass - 1D - pass - 1NT
does it deny 4 card majors?
and in this auction, where partner is a passed hand?
b.) pass - pass - 1Cl - pass - 1D - pass - 1NT

if it doesnt deny 4 card majors,

c.) what do u bid as a responder in a.) with 12 points 4D+ 4Sp?
d.) or in b.) with 11 points 4D+ 4 Sp?

[Codo]

Hi

a: In my opinion yes if you don`t agree on walsh,
1 NT denies a 4 card major.
But I met many players here who did not bid
their major for reasons I cannot understand.
(In my opinion they are just wrong)

b: same answer, no difference for me.

C.: If I didn`t agree on walsh, I bid 1 Diamond
If I did, I have to judge if my hand is a game
force or not.

d: 1 Diamond if I don`t play.... walsh

Kind Regards

Roland

[Cascade]

Quote

in uncontested auction:
a.) 1Cl - pass - 1D - pass - 1NT
does it deny 4 card majors?

That depends on partnership agreement.

If 1NT can include a four-card major then either:

1. 1D should deny a 4-card major or

2. some form of checkback Stayman should be used.

Quote

and in this auction, where partner is a passed hand?
b.) pass - pass - 1Cl - pass - 1D - pass - 1NT

if it doesnt deny 4 card majors,

c.) what do u bid as a responder in a.) with 12 points 4D+ 4Sp?

Assuming a strong NT system and therefore a weak NT rebid -

If you play checkback then with 12 points you are strong enough to ask partner for a four-card major on the way to inviting game or bidding game.

Quote

d.) or in b.) with 11 points 4D+ 4 Sp?

Unless you judge that you are strong enough to invite game and therefore can use a checkback then I guess you are endplayed into showing your major first 1C Pass 1S!. Otherwise you will often miss your 4-4 major fit.

You need to tell your opponents of your style here. I imagine in most places that if you do not simply bid your suits up-the-line then you would need to disclose this by an alert or an announcement of some kind.

Wayne

[the hog]

The perennial question, prompting many arguments on rgb.
People who do not know how to bid will open 1C on 4333 4423 or similar and rebid in the Major rather than 1N.

Balanced hands should be treated as balanced hands. 1C 1D 1S, if bid by any competent player, will show 5C and 4S. Cascade is correct when he says you need to play a form of checkback over the 1N rebid.


I am not a fan of rebidding 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit so 1C 1D 1H could be only four clubs in a 4414 hand.

Yep, I'll accept that.

[Cascade]

Quote

The perennial question, prompting many arguments on rgb.
People who do not know how to bid will open 1C on 4333 4423 or similar and rebid in the Major rather than 1N.

Balanced hands should be treated as balanced hands. 1C 1D 1S, if bid by any competent player, will show 5C and 4S. Cascade is correct when he says you need to play a form of checkback over the 1N rebid.

I am not a fan of rebidding 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit so 1C 1D 1H could be only four clubs in a 4414 hand.

Wayne

[bglover]

I cannot say I entirely agree with the Hog's comments.

All major bidding systems are geared towards locating 8 card major fits. So, with 13 or 14 HCP and 4423 shape what else can you open playing SAYC or 2/1 GF besides 1C? (Assuming we are not playing weak NT here). You can't open 1NT so you must open 1C.

Now, after 1D you respond in your majors up the line and find your 4-4 fit if there is one. The least evil result is that a 1NT contract is wrong sided a good portion of the time.

Actually, I agree with his sentiments when opener is holding a good hand. I always jump to 2n with that hand and expect partner to use checkback after to see if we have a major fit. If partner uses checkback we still locate our fit.

Now, as a matter of course, assuming a decent 4 card major, I will open 1M in 3d or 4th seat frequently as well.

Just because opener is balanced doesn't mean responder is... I don't see a need to rush to bid 1NT on 4432 shape; I think it's more important to find that 8 card fit.

[EricK]

Quote

I cannot say I entirely agree with the Hog's comments.

All major bidding systems are geared towards locating 8 card major fits. So, with 13 or 14 HCP and 4423 shape what else can you open playing SAYC or 2/1 GF besides 1C? (Assuming we are not playing weak NT here). You can't open 1NT so you must open 1C.

Now, after 1D you respond in your majors up the line and find your 4-4 fit if there is one. The least evil result is that a 1NT contract is wrong sided a good portion of the time.

Actually, I agree with his sentiments when opener is holding a good hand. I always jump to 2n with that hand and expect partner to use checkback after to see if we have a major fit. If partner uses checkback we still locate our fit.

Now, as a matter of course, assuming a decent 4 card major, I will open 1M in 3d or 4th seat frequently as well.

Just because opener is balanced doesn't mean responder is... I don't see a need to rush to bid 1NT on 4432 shape; I think it's more important to find that 8 card fit.

This sounds plausible, but if this was really your attitude, then you wouldn't open a natural 1NT at all if you held a 4 card major.

If you are prepared to open 1NT on a 4432 shape, then why aren't you prepared to rebid 1NT on the same shape?

Eric

[bglover]

I must admit, Erick, I do not get your comment/question at all.

I am trying to find the 8 card fit FIRST with a 13-14 point hand... that'd kind of the point. The advantage to a 1nt opening (assuming 15-17) is that you get the size shape information into the open first for partner THEN you try to locate the fit.

[the hog]

I think Eric has an excellent point
If you define a flat hand as a 4333, 4432 or 5332, then it should make ABSOLUTELY no difference what your range is. If you play a strong NT, open the 13-14 pointer with 1C/D and rebid 1N and open the 15-17 pointer 1N; if you play a weak NT just follow the reverse philosophy. Why are you following a different bidding style with essentially the same shaped hands. As I stated in a previous post - shape is ALL important; treat flat hands as flat hands.
On hand posted on rgb some weeks ago
You hold
x
KJxxx
xxxx
Axx

1C 1H
1S ?
If you know you are playing with someone who knows how to bid, you have an easy 2C. If on the other hand opener could have
a 4333 shape or similar you are forced to bid 1N and wrong side your contract. Bid 2C and play in the 3-3 fit?

[bglover]

I fully acknowledged that you risk wrong siding the NT contract this way... what do you want me to say?

STILL the most important thing (to me) is to find that 4-4 fit as fast as possible.. I would rather play 2M any day than 1N when there is no game but an 8 card major fit...you seem to be losing complete sight of that goal with your argument.

If your goal is to right side 1nt contracts, fine, bid that way, I don't disagree you'll accomplish it.

OTOH if you agree that 2M with an 8 card fit plays better than 1n (usually) then bid it my way. Since I am not disagreeing with that outcome, your goal is different.. that's fine.

I just think it's the wrong goal is all.

[hrothgar]

Interesting aside:

As always, I think that MOSCITO represents an interesting contrast to "traditional" bidding tactics. [I also argue that MOSCITO is a superior strategy]

First, 2/1 commented that "All major bidding systems are geared towards locating 8 card major fits". I'm not sure whether MOSCITO qualifies as a "major" bidding system, however, MOSCITO deliberately and systemically emphasizes locating 7 card fits in the major as quickly as possible. Locating an eight card fit in the majors is certainly significant in exploring for the best game, however, accurate part score bidding is more significant.

Second, playing MOSCITO, bidders have the option to use judgement to open balanced hands with a 4 card major with either 1M or 1NT. If the hand looks appropriate for a 1M opening , open 1M. If the hand looks appropriate for 1NT, open 1NT.

[EricK]

Quote

I must admit, Erick, I do not get your comment/question at all.

I am trying to find the 8 card fit FIRST with a 13-14 point hand... that'd kind of the point. The advantage to a 1nt opening (assuming 15-17) is that you get the size shape information into the open first for partner THEN you try to locate the fit.

But that is my point! My Null Hypothesis would be that either shape/strength information is more important or locating 4-4 major fits is more important. You seem to be saying that if you happen to hold 15-17 then shape/strength is more important, if 12-14 then 4-4 fits are more important. (and presumably vice versa whenever you play a weak NT).

You may be right, but I would like to see some reasons.

If locating 4-4 fits was more important then I would expect you to play a system like:

1 S/H/D 5+
1C 1+
1NT 19-21 balanced

and in response to 1C
1 H/S 5+
1D at least one 4 card major

etc etc. Then you would hardly miss any 5-3 or 4-4 major fits.

Eric

[bglover]

Actually, it's rather funny you wrote that because I agree with that 100% and actually wrote a big club system some years back based on very similar principles.

I guess I wasn't entirely clear... The object of standard bidding is obviously to locate 8 card fits.. that's not a mystery.

It's also incumbent on bidders to limit their size/shape as fast as possible when game is in doubt. NT opening bids allow you to do the latter immediately and then you go about finding the 8 card fit if it's there. The goals don't change, the order does.

Now, on part score hands (what this thread is really about), the question is "Is it more important to find 8 card fits or right-side NT contracts?"

Obviously, I feel that 4-4 fits play better than playing NT. So, let's be efficient in locating them. You and Hog feel it's more important to play 1nt from the correct side, and I do not agree. But, in the cases where there is no 8 card fits you guys are going to come out slighly ahead, no doubt.

Most hands, however, do contain an 8 card fit SOMEHWERE and I just feel that's more important than right-siding NT. Clearly, your methodology will accomplish that.

[EricK]

Quote

Actually, it's rather funny you wrote that because I agree with that 100% and actually wrote a big club system some years back based on very similar principles.

I guess I wasn't entirely clear... The object of standard bidding is obviously to locate 8 card fits.. that's not a mystery.

It's also incumbent on bidders to limit their size/shape as fast as possible when game is in doubt. NT opening bids allow you to do the latter immediately and then you go about finding the 8 card fit if it's there. The goals don't change, the order does.

Now, on part score hands (what this thread is really about), the question is "Is it more important to find 8 card fits or right-side NT contracts?"

Obviously, I feel that 4-4 fits play better than playing NT. So, let's be efficient in locating them. You and Hog feel it's more important to play 1nt from the correct side, and I do not agree. But, in the cases where there is no 8 card fits you guys are going to come out slighly ahead, no doubt.

Most hands, however, do contain an 8 card fit SOMEHWERE and I just feel that's more important than right-siding NT. Clearly, your methodology will accomplish that.

My philosophy isn't really concerned with right-siding 1NT contracts (nor I suspect is The_Hog's).

If the bidding starts 1C 1D 1S, then partner will know at least 9 of my cards and will be well placed to get us to a decent spot. If it starts 1C 1D 1NT he will know my strength and shape and will again be well placed to get us to a decent spot (just as if I had opened 1NT). He won't always be able to get us to the best spot, but no method can do that at the part-score level. If we are in the game or slam zone, partner will be able to get us the best spot practically 100% of the time.

Playing the other style, if the bidding starts 1C 1D 1S, partner knows 7 of my cards, and doesn't know if I am balanced or not. If he has a spade fit we are doing fine, if not he is guessing much of the time. This might hold true even at the game level. eg 1C 1H 1S 2D! 2H ... partner has bid FSF and we have shown delayed Heart support. What is our hand? If it could range from a 4333 hand to a 4315 hand (maybe even a 4306 hand) how is partner going to work out what to do?

Eric

[bglover]

Well, don't forget I stressed that I jump to 2NT whenever possible and expect partner to use some form of checkback afterwards, so I have limited my hand to less than 18 points... Sure, it's still a pretty broad range compared to rebidding 1nt and limiting my hand to 15, but that's the trade off I am making.

Also don't dismiss the importance of opening a 4 card major 3-4th seat. This is also a device meant to get us to the best spot in a part score contract.

IOW, I am trying to accomplish similar things to you and The Hog systematically. The part score goals are just a tad dissimilar.

[inquiry]

I have read this thread for days without feeling the need to comment, after all, this is a matter of personal style. However, if you play XYZ convention, there is no need to worry about walsh and the like. If you have a four card major, bid it. If partner bids 1NT, then you can bail out in 2D using the 2C transfer (signoff in diamonds or game try/checkback).

BTW, how many people playing 2C/2D as checkback use 2NT as transfer to get into clubs? That is

1C-1H-1N-2C<--- forces 2D either to play 2D or game try
1C-1S-1N-3C<-- forcing, good values in bid suits
1C-1S-1N-2D<-- game force
1C-1H-1N-2N<--transfer to 3C

ben

[the hog]

1C-1H-1N-2C<--- forces 2D either to play 2D or game try
1C-1S-1N-3C<-- forcing, good values in bid suits
1C-1S-1N-2D<-- game force
1C-1H-1N-2N<--transfer to 3C

We play this Ben, though in the last sequence if resp bids 3 of his M it shows a 6 card suit headed by 2 of the top 3 inv to 3N.

In response to EricKs comments - I virtually find myself in total agreement.

[Codo]

Hi Ron,

you tried to make your point
with an example from rec. games:

x
KJxxx
xxxx
Axx

1C 1H
1S

Okay, so with you, I know now, that you have at least 9 black cards and can easily rebid 2 Club.
But what will happen with other pards, who bid 1C/1S with 4333?
After
1 Club-1Heart
1 Spade-2Club
he can and maybe will bid a simple 2 Heart. With the given hand, you easily reach the top spot. But even with f.e. a 2425 shape, this will be no bad score at all.

And what about other hands:

You bid 1 CLub-1Heart-1 NT
with 4333.
Pd has f.e. 4513. Shall he pass? Bid 2 Heart? (And find you with 4234?)

HI Eric,

Playing the other style, if the bidding starts 1C 1D 1S, partner knows 7 of my cards, and doesn't know if I am balanced or not. If he has a spade fit we are doing fine, if not he is guessing much of the time. This might hold true even at the game level. eg 1C 1H 1S 2D! 2H ... partner has bid FSF and we have shown delayed Heart support. What is our hand? If it could range from a 4333 hand to a 4315 hand (maybe even a 4306 hand) how is partner going to work out what to do

If he has no spade fit, what does he have?
A balanced hand? Fine, bid x NT
Club fit? Support clubs
Long hearts: Bid them.
Long diamonds: 1 NT

So, if both of you are balanced, He will play 1 NT, not you.
If he has many red cards and you many blacks, he will play 1 NT.

Where is the problem in naming your 4 card major?
What bad things will happen, if you do?

Kind Regards

Roland

[the hog]

Where is the problem in naming your 4 card major?
What bad things will happen, if you do?

Roland, most of the time nothing bad will happen. EricK and I are arguing that this style of bidding where you do not differentiate between balanced hands and unbalanced hands is not conducive to constructive bidding. There is a big differenced between a 4225 and a 4333 shape imho, and I don't see, (and I guess EricK doesn't either), how you can bid sensibly if you treat both hand types the same.

If you are interested in pursuing this, read Ron Klinger's "The Power of Shape".

Ron

[Codo]

Hi Ron,

I think this is the basic difference:
a 4225 and a 4333 shape, I don't see, how you can bid sensibly if you treat both hand types the same.

Nobody will bid both hand types the same. It is just the question when you start to make a difference.
In SAYC and 2/1 (and this threat is about these systems), we all open both hands with 1 club.
For these examples we have, partner answers one Heart.
Now, the difference begins: You answer 1 NT to show your shape. I answer 1 Spade to show my major.
I think, that we both agree, that with good hands with nearly game forcing strength between you and your pd, you have no problems at all with both ways. There is enough space to show strength, shape and your telephone number. So lets look at the weaker hands:

Pd has a fit, okay no problem.
Pd has balanced hand types, he can rebid 1 NT
Pd has a heart one suiter: He can rebid heart
Pd has Hearts and diamonds: He can rebid 2 Heart or 1 NT.

So, he can and will easily show his shape now. At least, he will show enough to place the contract.

So when do you have problems?
Just if pd has something like a 2524 and rebids 1 NT to my 1 Spade bid with 4315. But no, this is no problem. You just bid 2 Heart.
So, what else? He rebids 2 Club with 2524 and you had the 4333 hand?
Yes, this defenitly is bad. But otoh, this is just one shape, where it does not work. But with any shape with a spade fit, you are better placed if you name your major.

Kind Regards

Roland