[bridgeguy2]

Hi

Someone mentioned to play this treatment: opening of 1M in 1st/2nd seat promises 5cards, opening 1M promises only 4cards 3rd/4th seat.

1) how do you like this treatment, does it have advantages?
2) have you ever played this?
3) does 1M 4+cards mean you can open a 4card major suit with a longer minor suit?
4) playing this treatment, what's your preferred response structure after 3rd/4th hand 1M opening? a raise still promises 3+cards?
5) would you play this treatment only if a) you knew the field played only 5card majors you knew the field played mostly 4card majors? Does it matter?

[helene_t]

1) how do you like this treatment?
Fine, but only with a good 4-card.
does it have advantages?
You can open your better 4-card for lead directing. Also, you can open 1♠ with for example a 4243 and 11 points. If you opened 1♦ you would know what to do if p responded 1♥. Also, 1♠ is preemptive.
2) have you ever played this?
Yes.
3) does 1M 4+cards mean you can open a 4card major suit with a longer minor suit?
Yes but only if you have a subminimum opening and can pass any response from partner to show this.
4) playing this treatment, what's your preferred response structure after 3rd/4th hand 1M opening? a raise still promises 3+cards?
You can still raise with 3-card support especially if you have ruffing value. But you must play Drury (maybe 2-way) so that you don't have to raise to the 3-level.
5) would you play this treatment only if a) you knew the field played only 5card majors you knew the field played mostly 4card majors? Does it matter?
I'm not so woried about the field, I don't expect anti-field bidding to be better or worse than bidding with the field.

BTW, in Moscito it's vice versa, 4-card major in 1st/2nd seat. Can someone explain me why?

[Impact]

Moscito uses 4 card Majors (or one-under with canape) in 1st & 2nd seats in order
a) to maximise use of the lower bids on a frequency basis
to enable relayer(responder) to explore shape and
c) for pre-emptive value.

In 3rd/4th seat (where Pass was not a strong option in 1st or 2nd) no relay is sustainable or useful.

Accordingly, certainty and competition for the partscore takes prevalence.

I could give you the long version but that is the short answer...

[Free]

Since MOSCITO uses transfer openings, we have to open 1♠ or higher with any hand without a Major (only very few exceptions). If we'd play 5 card Majors, then you'd never find your 4-4 Major fits. It's mostly because of system design (it's a logical decision):
- Majors first style
- Preempting with support in the Major (2M shows only 3 card, 3M is 4+ cards)
- Every opening shows at least 4 cards in a known suit -> better in competition
- We want to keep the transfers to let the unknown hand play more, so we just can't play 5 card Majors
- maybe something I forgot

[hrothgar]

helene_t, on Sep 30 2005, 10:07 AM, said:

BTW, in Moscito it's vice versa, 4-card major in 1st/2nd seat. Can someone explain me why?

Yes and no...

MOSCITO uses 4 card majors in first/second seat.
Most MOSCITO variants also use 4 card majors in 3rd/4th seat...
People who play MOSCITO tend to be the sorts of people who like 4CM.

Where MOSCITO tends to flip flog is strength of the opening bids. Many well known systems are based on sound initial action in first/second seat. Accoridngly, they need to lighten up significantly in 3rd/4th to avoid missing attractive part score.

MOSCITO prefers to open aggressively in first/second for preemptive value.
We don't need to open aggressively in 4th. There's often debate regarding whether or not to play a sound (aka chicken) opening style in 3rd...

[pbleighton]

1) how do you like this treatment, does it have advantages?
It's fine.
2) have you ever played this?
Yes, in one current partnership
3) does 1M 4+cards mean you can open a 4card major suit with a longer minor suit?
Depending on suit quality, yes.
4) playing this treatment, what's your preferred response structure after 3rd/4th hand 1M opening? a raise still promises 3+cards?
Yes. We also play 2 way Drury, which I think is necessary.
5) would you play this treatment only if a) you knew the field played only 5card majors you knew the field played mostly 4card majors? Does it matter?
No.

General comment:

I'm not usually going to open a 4cM with 15+ hcp - I will start low on good hands. I also want a strong suit to do this in the 4th seat. For me, this approach has the most value in the 3rd seat with minimum or subminimum hands. Vulnerable, we want a reasonable suit. NV, almost anything goes.

Peter

[pigpenz]

yes the debate could go on forever, I like four card majors with a weak NT structure it is very playable.

[MickyB]

4 card suits works well with a 14-16 NT in 3rd+4th, assuming you are happy not being in game with flat 13 opposite flat 11. Have a passed hand response promise a 5 card suit, then you can pass it quite happily holding 10-13 flat. I tend to make lead directing bids on these weaker hands, suppressing the longer minor can work quite nicely. I tend to raise on 3 card support unless 4333 or 4432 with a doubleton honour.

[han]

Hi

Someone mentioned to play this treatment: opening of 1M in 1st/2nd seat promises 5cards, opening 1M promises only 4cards 3rd/4th seat.

1) how do you like this treatment, does it have advantages?
2) have you ever played this?
3) does 1M 4+cards mean you can open a 4card major suit with a longer minor suit?
4) playing this treatment, what's your preferred response structure after 3rd/4th hand 1M opening? a raise still promises 3+cards?
5) would you play this treatment only if a) you knew the field played only 5card majors cool.gif you knew the field played mostly 4card majors? Does it matter?

I only open 1M with 4 in 3rd/4th seat if I have a subminimal opening. This happens VERY often. So if I open 1M and then show a sign of life, I must have a 5+ suit.

1) Yes! It is both lead directing and preemptive.

2) Yes, I always play this, and in pick-up partnerships I assume that my partner does too. In other words, I think that this is "standard"

3) You can but you don't have to. Depends on hand strength and suit quality.

4) Yes, still raise on 3+ cards. And drury of course.

5) It doesn't matter, this treatment is so important to me that I don't care what the field plays.

[pigpenz]

Hannie, on Sep 30 2005, 11:27 AM, said:

5) It doesn't matter, this treatment is so important to me that I don't care what the field plays.

one of the nicedst things about four card majors is knowing that when you open something you have length/strength in the suit especially minors.

Playing four card majors with weak notrump is nice, you just open the weak NT if you dont have a 4Card major with an honor, same with the minor suit. So you arent playing with the field but you gain on the knowledge that parnter isnt opening on xxx minor.

What you also gain on the field is the ability to bid minor suit auctions with the principle of fast arrival, where generally the field playing 5 card majors always have this seed of doubt in their mind that partner might just have xxx/minor

[han]

Note that I do open 1m sometimes with xxx when I have an honest hand (rare).

[MickyB]

pigpenz, on Sep 30 2005, 03:27 PM, said:

yes the debate could go on forever, I like four card majors with a weak NT structure it is very playable.

Weak NT in 3rd, and to a lesser extent, 4th seat is just bad. My main reason for prefering to play strong NT is that then I don't have to worry about varying the range.

[mikeh]

1. I have played this style for as long as I can remember: it is 'expert standard' (and not just for experts) in this part of the world.

I like it because it:

i) has preemptive value: finds major suit fits early if they exist
ii) gives better definition to the minor suit openings, allowing partner to compete after an overcall. While 1♣ might still be on 3 (I need a decent suit for 1M on 4) the odds are far greater (than opposite a 1st or 2nd seat opener) that I have a real suit

My test is whether I will pass a semi-focring 1N response: if yes, then I open 1M

2. I play it every week

3. No: one partner of mine liked this style and used the sequence of 1M - 1N - 2m as 'to play', but I did not and do not like it.

4. 1NT semi-forcing: opener will pass 1N with a minimum hand with a 4 card major

2-way drury is very useful: it is possible (and desirable in a good partnership) to play a very detailed structure off of 2-way drury

5. I do not choose my method by considering what others, holding my cards, play. I choose my methods because they seem to be effective. If I thought that the methods played by others were better, I'd play them

[awm]

It's pretty standard to open good four-card majors on hands that cannot envision game opposite a passed hand.

The more interesting question is, would you open a four-card major on a "real" opening hand that might make a game? There are a number of good reasons to do this; in particular:

(1) Now all your bids including minor suit openings have some lead-directional value. Even holding 14-15 points you may end up defending.

(2) If you hold a strong balanced hand (say 18-19) it becomes somewhat more likely that partner will pass your opening. Obviously it's still not that likely, but partner's initial pass removes some of the better hands from the mix and makes pass more frequent. Obviously 1m on the 3-3 fit is not a great spot.

(3) If minor suits guarantee four it lets partner preempt more frequently in those suits when opponents bid.

In fact it seems to me that it might be a good general policy to open good four-card majors with 18-19 balanced hands. You can normally back into 3NT when it's right (especially if partner knows you do this) and if you get passed out you're in a much more acceptable place. This actually makes certain slam auctions easier because your bidding can start 1M-2NT (jacoby) instead of starting 1m-1M-4M where you are many levels higher.

[han]

Good points Adam.

Just wondering, how often does your partner bid Jacoby with a passed hand?

[han]

mikeh, on Sep 30 2005, 03:05 PM, said:

2. I play it every week

hahaha, you are a lucky man Mike!

[mr1303]

If by Jacoby you mean Jacoby 2NT, that shows 4 trumps and a singleton somewhere (so that a splinter would show a void).

3C asks for the shortage after that.