[jjsb]

BBO 8:52am 25°C in ur room so everything ok but
then u receive that hand :

IMP all vulnerable

J
K965
A87
AKJ102

and the auction goes a "dragstar" way

LHO dealer open 4S , ur partner Pass and RHO 5S , to you .

regards
syl (jjsb)

[inquiry]

Quote

BBO 8:52am 25°C in ur room so everything ok but
then u receive that hand :

IMP all vulnerable

J
K965
A87
AKJ102

and the auction goes a "dragstar" way

LHO dealer open 4S , ur partner Pass and RHO 5S , to you .

My bid = PASS

I play a DOUBLE here still as takeout, although partner passes my takeout at this level about 70% of the time. However, even though I have the "perfect takeout double type hand for my treatment on this auction",  the given hand at the given Vulnerabilty, I am afraid I will simply choose a tame PASS over 5-SPADES, and hope they are one level too high and I get +100. Here is why I pass.

This is a very dangerous hand. Let's assume you know that WEST is a strong intermediate or better player. He will be very close to making his bid when he opens a VULNERABLE 4S , surely at least 8 tricks, and maybe nine.

So you have to think about what the FIVE spade bid means. If you were VUL and they were not, I would think that EAST was just raising the level of the preempt to make it hard for you to find your best fit. But when they are VUL, I seriously doubt this is a mear raise the level of the preempt. So EAST must have something like 3 or maybe 4 likely tricks and is inviting slam if West has good SPADES for the given auction.

Therefore, it is likely that the opponents will have 10 or 11 tricks in spades, and maybe even 12 (if EAST has a CLUB void, for instance, for his failure to use blackwood).

So if I make my 5SPADE takeout double, here is what will happen. The bidding might go....

4S-P-5S-X-P-P-XX-P-P-P  making five (-1200) or six (-1600) when East  holds something like
                      S-xxxx H-AQJx  D-KQJxx C-void
or

4S-P-5S-X-P-6D-X   going down maybe six vul for -1700  when partner has
                      S-K  H-7653 D-Txxxx C-xxx

So if East or West is off their rocker, and they have terrifically overbid, I will just stayed fixed. For I have discovered a long time ago that if the opponents are trying for slam, it is the wrong time to go doubling them at the five level (an  exception for the psychic stripped tail ape double if you know what that is).   :  After you rack up a few -1200, -1600, and -1700 you will be willing to stay fixed occassional on hands like this one of your opponents makes a lucky wacky bid like he would when not vul when he is vul. If West raise to 6 SPADES, I will double, but I know that is might still make despite my two aces, I just hope I can score the HEART KING and DIAMOND ACE or two ACES.

[keylime]

This to me is a no-brainer...pass and defend here.

[the hog]

IF the vul were reversed

As what is 5S explained? If it is bid 6 with a good hand, I pass and if the 5S bidder has got me all hail to him. If 5S is a further pre empt, X is 100% obvious. While takeout oriented, this also shows cards and can be passed by partner unless he has a clearcut bid.

Unless you double in situations like this the opponents will steal you blind and laugh all the way to the bank.

As it is that this vul I pass reluctantly. Incidentally this is NOT obvious and far from the "no brainer" that some posters have suggested.

[jjsb]

hello everyone , thansk for your answer

here is the 4 hands and the auction that happened in real



            7
            10872
            10942
            Q863

KQ105432            A986
3                                       AQJ4
KQ65                               J3
4                                       975

            J
            K965
            A87
            AKJ102


i doubled the 5S and in a second was redouble !! by west for the results that you all can see... it's funny to note the difference of conception that can exist between french and i would say english speaking country  , when i asked that question to french experts there was no pass and not even one think of it . i had also some that decided to bid 6C (i don't like that bid at all) . when i ask that to the english speaking  experts i know nearly everyone pass , those who don't , think deeply of doing it . I think it's just coming from a different idea of the 5S bid. and also the fact is the "blue bid" (redouble) , didn't exist in France (apart for some situation ) or let say never to win a contract redouble. As for me, well, i'm french so for now follow the french conception (maybe time to change with that deal no? )  if i was north i would not double with : void , A10x xxxxx KDxxx. and i would maybe bid 5S holding : Qxxxx Jxxx xxx x even red vs red . in fact i have the impression i may even bid 6 directly with that . I guess it just show that it's a situation you's better talk with your partner . the conception of preempting i mean . note that best defense in 6C give -5 1400.

regards
syl

[inquiry]

JJSB said 1) French Experts don't even think about pass, and
2) English experts nearly all pass and those who don't anguish over not passing.

I think maybe I know the reason why this might happen. European players play takeout doubles over basicallly all opening bids (except perhaps a 7 Spade opening bid). American experts are much more likley to play double of 4Spades and above as penalty.

Because this "mind-set", many american experts will be thinking they can't double 5SPADES as they lack a spade "stack". And the French Experts think they can double 5S because they have a perfect hand for the double.

I actually play this double the european style, but as I said, my experience is bad things can happen doubling with this hand when they are vul.