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Scoring: MP
Partner dealt and the auction proceeded with the opps passing: 1♠-2♦-4♦-??
a) What does this sequence mean in "out of the box" SA? (i.e. previously undiscussed)
b) What is your call?
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The meaning of 1M-2m-4m in SA
#1
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Posted 2005-September-28, 13:34
Yesterday, playing in an established but not very sophisticated partnership (playing vanilla SA, blackwood etc. , nothing fancy) this hand came up:
Partner dealt and the auction proceeded with the opps passing: 1♠-2♦-4♦-??
a) What does this sequence mean in "out of the box" SA? (i.e. previously undiscussed)
b) What is your call?
Partner dealt and the auction proceeded with the opps passing: 1♠-2♦-4♦-??
a) What does this sequence mean in "out of the box" SA? (i.e. previously undiscussed)
b) What is your call?
#2 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2005-September-28, 13:37
in standard american this shows a good (forcing) hand with diamonds I think. I think someone wrote 3D is forcing in standard american but even if that is technically true I think a majority of SA players do not play it that way. Obviously with going past 3N partner has some kind of hand suitable for a slam try. I would bid 4H as if I bid blackwood and partner has 2, we are too high.
#3
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Posted 2005-September-28, 13:38
Ask for aces and bid 5 6 or 7♦ accordingly. Simple 
#4
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Posted 2005-September-28, 13:54
Re: Justin's post, I was pretty sure that 3♦ was forcing and could not think of a good reason why pard would bypass 3NT to show the same hand that 3♦ would. We had never discussed 4♥ here as a some sort of RKC variant (remember that we do not even play RKC 
) or some kind of cue and I thought I had a bit too much to just bid 5♦ (a king extra at least).
Unfortunately, pard had a 15 count with 5-2-4-2 and 6♦ /6NT did not fetch (We were off two cashing aces, the ♦K etc.). I was curious to see how many people played 1M-2m-3m as a force in SA and what they assigned to 1M-2m-4m depending on what 1M-2m-3m meant.
) or some kind of cue and I thought I had a bit too much to just bid 5♦ (a king extra at least).Unfortunately, pard had a 15 count with 5-2-4-2 and 6♦ /6NT did not fetch (We were off two cashing aces, the ♦K etc.). I was curious to see how many people played 1M-2m-3m as a force in SA and what they assigned to 1M-2m-4m depending on what 1M-2m-3m meant.
#5
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Posted 2005-September-28, 13:55
4♦ shows a good distributional hand (3NT is not possible anymore).
I also think it shows a 5♠-5♦ hand (maybe 6♠4♦) picture style
hands should be like this:
AKJ10xx x AJxx x // AKQxx x AJxxx xx
or stronger.
I would bid 4♥ over 4♦
I also think it shows a 5♠-5♦ hand (maybe 6♠4♦) picture style
hands should be like this:
AKJ10xx x AJxx x // AKQxx x AJxxx xx
or stronger.
I would bid 4♥ over 4♦
#6
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Posted 2005-September-28, 13:57
I think Beto's examples make the most sense for the 1M-2m-4m sequence, now I need to get my mom to remember this
#7
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Posted 2005-September-28, 14:00
Boy, Standard American, like the citizens themselves, are getter bigger and bigger all the time 
. Seems to me that splinters may be unknown in SA (Granny style) but the 2D bid can be made on AQJxxx and out. That makes 3D passable so that 4D was the game invitational bid ( if pard has his nice 10+ hcp, then he can go to game. ) Doesn't make much sense, but then neither does SA.... 
. Seems to me that splinters may be unknown in SA (Granny style) but the 2D bid can be made on AQJxxx and out. That makes 3D passable so that 4D was the game invitational bid ( if pard has his nice 10+ hcp, then he can go to game. ) Doesn't make much sense, but then neither does SA....
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
#8 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2005-September-28, 14:03
the meaning of 4D depends on the meaning of both jump shifts and if 1M-2m-3m is forcing.
Say 3m is non forcing, well now 4D just sets trumps and shows slam interest.
Say 3m is forcing, and jump shifts are splinters. Well 5242 loaded in the pointeds and now control in the unbid is now the meaning (AKQxx xx AKQx xx).
Say 3m is forcing, but jump shifts are not splinters. Well now 4m is just a distributional hand with slam interest, no interest in 3N.
Say 3m is non forcing, well now 4D just sets trumps and shows slam interest.
Say 3m is forcing, and jump shifts are splinters. Well 5242 loaded in the pointeds and now control in the unbid is now the meaning (AKQxx xx AKQx xx).
Say 3m is forcing, but jump shifts are not splinters. Well now 4m is just a distributional hand with slam interest, no interest in 3N.
#9
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Posted 2005-September-28, 15:27
in my system with real people we play anytime we bypass 3NT this is keycard gerber black wood whatever you want to call it....in vanilla sayc i think this we almost be cue bidding demand.
#10
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Posted 2005-September-28, 15:34
4m should be natural and forcing.
4H cue bid, over 4S bid 5C, maybe
partner gets the message that you hold
only one key card.
With kind regards
Marlowe
4H cue bid, over 4S bid 5C, maybe
partner gets the message that you hold
only one key card.
With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#11 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2005-September-28, 15:36
whereagles, on Sep 28 2005, 02:38 PM, said:
Ask for aces and bid 5 6 or 7♦ accordingly. Simple
when partner bids 5H showing 2 how do you get to 5?
#12
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Posted 2005-September-28, 15:39
You bid 5♠, requesting pard to bid 5NT to which you pass, what else? 
Don't ask me trivial questions
Don't ask me trivial questions
#13 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2005-September-28, 15:51
whereagles, on Sep 28 2005, 04:39 PM, said:
You bid 5♠, requesting pard to bid 5NT to which you pass, what else? Don't ask me trivial questions
Don't ask me trivial questions sorry to ask you such trivial questions, but with spade support over 4D if you wanted to bid blackwood what would you bid? 5S, amazingly enough, would indicate a desire to play 5S in the real world.
#14
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Posted 2005-September-29, 04:31
Justin... I was kidding.. lol
If opener has 2 aces I have a problem, of course. But I think it's odd-on he has 3 aces, hence blackwood is reasonably safe. I hope... lol.
If opener has 2 aces I have a problem, of course. But I think it's odd-on he has 3 aces, hence blackwood is reasonably safe. I hope... lol.
#15
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Posted 2005-September-29, 05:12
Slam try with probably 5♦ --> 4♥
Alain
Alain
Alain
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