[mikeh]

Luis, obviously we all agree that it was wrong to announce 'undiscussed' over the 4N.

But I am with Justin in wondering why you are upset at the explanation of the 5♦ bid.

To me, the outcome of this hand depends on the hand held by the 4N bidder. If he had both minors and dubious ♥, it seems likely that he intended 4N as takeout and then catered to his partner's possible keycard response. I would, as committee or director, at least strongly consider making them play in 5♦.

Also, if responder's hand makes it clear that he intended 4N as keycard, I would want to know what a 5♦ keycard response would show. Let's assume, for example, that they play 1430. Now 5♦ shows 3 keycards. If overcaller held only 2, and 3 would suggest slam, I might force the 4N bidder to bid 6♥ (unless it made ).

The problem does not lie in the explanation of 5♦ but in the unauthorized information contained in the 'undiscussed' announcement.

[pigpenz]

inquiry, on Sep 22 2005, 11:57 AM, said:

pigpenz, on Sep 22 2005, 12:48 PM, said:

thats the point of the problem

At the table, the player with this hand bid a natural 4NT. I didn't think that bid was possible without expressed agreement (in otherwords, I thought expert opinion would be, if undiscussed 4NT would be two places to play --- by the way, this does not exclude hearts as one of the two places).

I think the poll clearly indicates that, indeed, experts play it this way. See comments by,

Fred, Justin, and rich. Roland while not addressing this question was hoping for all the tricks in diamonds after ♠A and ♠ ruff, so it is clear he thinks 4NT is not natural as well. I think most of the 5♦ and all the Doublers would bid 4NT if they believed it to be natural.

Of course it would be great if it was legal to bid 4NT and add the words "to play" to it... if only the rules would let you!!!

i am watching hands spin by on the simulator as DF looks at them, and am thinking if 4NT is takeout what type of hands do we want partner to bid 4NT on? Do we want partner do bid on 5-4 hands 6-4 hands only 5-5 or what?

I think it has brought up an interesting point!
What do we expect partner to have for his 4NT call? If that call is made.
Are the odds better on an auction like this that parnter is more likely to be one suited vs two suited?

[Dinos1]

Quote

Reisig I'd play 4NT here as two suited (not natural)...do I have a real choice? 5D

If 4N is 2-suited what then 5m bid means? 1-suited? Isn't better to reverse these meanings? Then 4N is to play WITH LONG MINOR. It's quite natural 'cause with balanced hand I would simply double! So - if 4N shows long minor then 2-suited hands can be described with bids: 5♣ - ♣ + higher suit, 5♦ - ♦ + ♥.
And this hand shows which treatment is better.
Different situation is after 1♥ - (4♠) - ? Here 4N is for t/o - either minor+fit or both minors (and short spades in both cases).

Sergey.

[flytoox]

Dinos1, on Sep 22 2005, 11:54 PM, said:

Quote

Reisig I'd play 4NT here as two suited (not natural)...do I have a real choice? 5D

If 4N is 2-suited what then 5m bid means? 1-suited? Isn't better to reverse these meanings? Then 4N is to play WITH LONG MINOR. It's quite natural 'cause with balanced hand I would simply double! So - if 4N shows long minor then 2-suited hands can be described with bids: 5♣ - ♣ + higher suit, 5♦ - ♦ + ♥.
And this hand shows which treatment is better.
Different situation is after 1♥ - (4♠) - ? Here 4N is for t/o - either minor+fit or both minors (and short spades in both cases).

Sergey.

Hehe, I like this logic.

[pigpenz]

yes thats what i am getting out looking at hands, 4nt still gives you some chance of playing 4NT by saying i have a single suited hand, if its two suited then when cant be bidding 4NT on 6-4 or 5-4 hands or we are the ones who will go for numbers. It almost like we need to come up with a quasi lebensol method of bidding over 4 bids over our 1NT openings.

any ideas from anyone else.

what the solvers forum does is give us a chance to build a better mousetrap.

[Fluffy]

What about the ♠ stopper? do you always have 1?

[pigpenz]

I keep thinking about this problem alot...and I almost feel like there has to be a better way to bid this so that at least you have a shot of getting to 4NT......maybe along the lines of some form of lebensol...

maybe 4NT should start a relay to 5♣ so show some form of single suited hand and direct bids of 5 show a better hand almost slam invitational or vice a versa, and then play double as cooperative.

The reason I was thinking of this is it more likely to be one suited or two suited.

[Dinos1]

Quote

What about the ♠ stopper? do you always have 1?

You have better solution than the one suggested?
There was high-level preemptive bid after all, and you just can't bid perfectly all the hands. So opener has to guess if he has no ♠ stopper - to pass or to bid 5♣ as P/C. Visualization of partner's probable hands will help in making decision.

Sergey.

[JLOGIC]

Agree with myself that 4N is not natural. I discuss this one with my partners too, I guess because of this thread! Thanks BBF.