[inquiry]

Beto, on Sep 21 2005, 12:10 AM, said:

inquiry, on Sep 20 2005, 08:13 PM, said:

Beto's description agrees nicely with the actual hand held (10 hcp, balanced). This hand is from the Brazilian Team Championship finals. At one table the player with this hand faced a different problem when his RHO bid 3♥ over 2NT. This is the problem facing Barbosa in the closed room of the finals 3 of 4.


One of Beto's two hands is actually very close to the held hand.

I was Barbosa at the table and it took me some time to decide what to bid.

So this 2NT hands i post is exactly what me and
my partner have as an agreement...

(partneship style, we can bid 2♣ on ♠Axx ♥x ♦xxx ♣A109xxx)


At the table i bid 3♦ over 2NT and this was
one of my big mistakes in this match. It costs us 13 IMPs...
but we still won by 19...

"Biggest mistake" is not a terrible characterization... I think you made the right bid. It just worked out ackwardly. It happens. BTW, Beto has joined the panel this time, I haven't opened his answers yet, but now I am curious, if he made the 3♦ bid again... There is no doubt the complete auction was a miserable failure, this time. But as Roland said earlier, (to paraphrase), the point is to choose the right bid on the 13 card hand, not the 52 card deal it was taken from.

[Beto]

inquiry, on Sep 21 2005, 02:21 AM, said:

"Biggest mistake" is not a terrible characterization... I think you made the right bid. It just worked out ackwardly. It happens. BTW, Beto has joined the panel this time, I haven't opened his answers yet, but now I am curious, if he made the 3♦ bid again... There is no doubt the complete auction was a miserable failure, this time. But as Roland said earlier, (to paraphrase), the point is to choose the right bid on the 13 card hand, not the 52 card deal it was taken from.

Yes, i took this as a big mistake because the result was bad...

[HeartA]

Jlall, on Sep 20 2005, 11:24 PM, said:

I don't think 3C is a hedge or invite, it is a signoff. That being said, with a king, Kx of clubs, and the heart ace partner will likely bid 3N anyways after finding out i have extra club length. If this king is spades, we'll make, if diamonds we'll go down. I do not expect partner to bid, but it is possible. I bid 3C because I think 3N rates to go down (several) and 3C will rate to make. I consider this hand a minimum 2C bid. Beto obviously had extras in his partnership style, but I would not consider that style to be standard.

Well, who said 3♣ shows 6th clubs? It is the weakest bid, imo.

[P_Marlowe]

3C.

Marlowe

[Rebound]

I guess I've missed the point.

Partner has invited game with a balanced hand and around 10 hcp. I have an ok hand for a 2-level vulnerable overcall, but not much more than a miminum for that call IMHO so I disagree that it is sufficient to make any kind of forcing call such as 3♦, or 3♥. With the given hand but only 5 clubs I pass. With the 6th club, 3♣. WTP?

[flytoox]

Jlall, on Sep 21 2005, 05:17 AM, said:

HeartA, on Sep 21 2005, 12:10 AM, said:

Well, who said 3♣ shows 6th clubs?  It is the weakest bid, imo.

I presumed people would pass with only 5 clubs rather than rebid it. You could easily have a 5-1 and are unlikely to have an 8 card fit. Do you also rebid a major after 1H p 1N p ? with only 5? I don't see any need as you have already shown 5. Pass is also a weak bid.

This is my thought too. I think 3C should be read as signoff but doesnot mind pd bid 3N. It should show 6 cards suit. It would be silly to play 5-2 fit at three level.

[badderzboy]

BILlie type question here, what would 2♥ instead of 2NT mean, I play it as an unassuming cue bid irrespective of support normally xx though for obvious reasons.

We have a minimum for our overcall but we have an extra ♣ so surely 3♣ tells all to partner here and he is now captain...

Steve

[Gerben42]

I bid 3♣. If partner really has a hand that will make 3NT, why didn't he bid it?

[Chamaco]

hrothgar, on Sep 21 2005, 12:14 AM, said:

Of course, this begs the basic question...

How do we ensure that we reach 3NT on the appropriate set of hands while resting safely in 3♣ on the rest...

I know this is no place for system discussion, however, since you address such an issue, I am fond of responding to pard's 2C overcall using the same scheme over pard's Precision 2C opening.
That usually allows to rest in 3C when needed.

This of course is not possible if the 2m overcall is in diamonds.

[Blofeld]

I voted for 3♦, and it's reassuring to see that I wasn't the only voice out on that limb. I quite strongly prefer 3♦ to 3NT, but I think it's much closer when compared with 3♣. I suppose that I would overcall 2♣ on less than this, and I'm too optimistic.

[Double !]

I am now CONVINCED that I have no clue when it comes to this game.

I am likely all alone on this one as I elected to Pass 2NT. P made a game try and, it seemed to me that, if P had the club king and a sound heart stopper, I still need a 9th trick. Without the "benefit" of a 3H bid on my left (according to an earlier post), I also suspected that P had some length and wasted values in hearts: is 3 clubs any more of a guarantee? My vul 2-level overcalls tend to be rather sound. I often have a 6-bagger for a red 2-level overcall (or shape or a darn good 5-bagger), and thought that P, with a fitting club honor (aka the king), a sound heart stop, and another likely (not slow) trick, might bid 3NT instead of 2NT.
So, another zero for me. And I stink at Gin Rummy, too!!!

[inquiry]

The answers on this one fell into three large categories. The overly optimistic, who blasted away to 3NT. The overly cautious, who signed off in 3♣. And then there was Fred and the at the table BETO, who bid 3♦. I think Fred and table Beto got it right. The bad news for them is no one else did, so their correct bid will not reflect the score it deserves. Here is how Fred worded his choice.

FRED "1. 3D - I think both 3C and 3NT are too unilateral. If we belong in 3NT we can still get there over 3D, but if we belong in clubs or diamonds we won't get there if I bid 3NT now. 3C will end the auction and, although I have a minimum in high cards, I am unwilling to play in 3C vul at IMPs (though it could easily be all that we make)."

The 3♣ bidders, for the most part, realized this was not a forgoing bid. Among those choosing 3♣, I liked Luis’s explanation the most. Joining the cautious passers was Richie, who went with the careful pass of 2NT. Only Flytoox thought 3♣ was giving partner another chance to bid. Fred (above) and each of the other 3♣ bidders hold no delusion that partner will take another call over 3♣.

Justin "A) 3C. 3N could work nicely but it is too much of a gamble for me. It is hard to imagine passing being right as I think 3C will play at least as well as 2N, and perhaps much better. 3N could be down multiple tricks while 3C is making, so I will just go with the middle of the road bid."

Beto "3♣. After my 2♣ bid I have a MIN hand. 3NT? Maybe, but if partner could not bid it after 2♣, it will be hard to score 9 tricks before they can cash 5. (BTW, Beto admitted to me in private message, he had to change his mind from 3♦ to 3♣ because of the memory of what happened at the table. He still likes the 3♦ bid in general with this hand.)

Luis: 3♣: "2NT is a bid that I really don't like the heart void when pd has values
in hearts is a bad sign. I don't think I can have less for a vulnerable 2c
overcall so 3c seems to be ok.

NG: 3C. "This hand is unsuitable for No Trump game, except partner has club King,
heart Ace and spade King or diamond Ace. But with club support and game
going values, he would have bid 2H first, so I suspect he has other type of
hand. 3D would be overbid, and right only, if partner has 4 diamonds. I rely
on 6-2 club fit and only a partscore contract."

Flytoox "I vote for 3C. Is 3C forcing or weak to play? (It is to play - inquiry ) I think it is nonforcing, but it should show a good suit. Pd bid 2N, he should have Kx or Jx support of club. I am going to give him another chance. If he passes 3C, I am sure 3C would be the best contract. If he does bid 3N, I don’t mind."

Reisig. I don't like my hand when partner probably has 5+ H with some values
there. I'm afraid we'll get killed if I bid more...so PASS. "


Then there was the highly optimistic. It is IMPs, after all.


Fluffy "3NT, 1♠, 1♥, 6♣ brings 8, partner will hopefully have a way to develop 9th.

Roland: 3NT. Close between 3NT and 3C (sign off). I know what worked at the table, but the one thing I will never do is pass. When do we have exactly 8 tricks in notrump? 2NT often suggests some kind of club fit, and all we need for 3NT to make is AQ of hearts and K of clubs with partner. Is that too much to ask for? I will go for the vulnerable game at IMPs."

Sergey "3N - hoping for 9 quick tricks (hK, sK and cK). "

Ritong "3NT. I like my ♣s. if I did not, I would bid 3♣. To me, assuming two level overcalls show 6+ cards, situation is forcing by nature."

Scores:
3♣ 100 - promoted because of the pass, to suggest the panel favored caution.

PASS (90) – promoted as it is in the same class as 3♣

3NT 80

3♦ 40 (it always pains me to score the bid I would choose so lowly… I have a lot of pain in these contest).

[mike777]

EDIT

[JLOGIC]

3C is really a horrible evaluation of this hand. There is a bonus for game. Definitely 3D, we might make 3N or 5m, and we can still stop in 4C. Even mikeh was more aggro than me on this hand Oo

[JLOGIC]

Jlall, on 2005-September-20, 15:49, said:

I would not expect a hand this strong, but my red 2 level overcalls tend to be sound. I would force to game with this hand opposite an opener with (usually) 6+ clubs though, and that's about what I would expect from pard.

Oh how times have changed! An opening hand and a 6 card suit to overcall at the 2 level as a min...lol. Even if this was true, the power of a great suit and a prime hand (aka the SA instead of KJ or whatever) is very strong for 3N. And for 5 of a minor the heart void and possible double fit is very strong also. This hand is not about high cards as a min etc.