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The auction went 1D P 2C (2S) dbl
2C was 2/1 GF. Pd said double showed a good hand. If I wanted to double spades I should pass and let him double cooperatively. I intended penalty and thought this was standard. What's your understanding?
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double to show good hand?
#1
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Posted 2012-December-15, 23:45
#2
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Posted 2012-December-16, 01:10
Vulnerability?
We are in a gf auction, I play this as penalty oriented. Of course partner is free to pull it.
Unless the opps are suicidal maniacs, how good can my hand be?
We are in a gf auction, I play this as penalty oriented. Of course partner is free to pull it.
Unless the opps are suicidal maniacs, how good can my hand be?
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
(still learning)
(still learning)
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Posted 2012-December-16, 01:54
straube, on 2012-December-15, 23:45, said:
The auction went 1D P 2C (2S) dbl
2C was 2/1 GF. Pd said double showed a good hand. If I wanted to double spades I should pass and let him double cooperatively. I intended penalty and thought this was standard. What's your understanding?
2C was 2/1 GF. Pd said double showed a good hand. If I wanted to double spades I should pass and let him double cooperatively. I intended penalty and thought this was standard. What's your understanding?
I'd take it as penalty.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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Posted 2012-December-16, 02:48
jillybean, on 2012-December-16, 01:10, said:
Vulnerability?
We are in a gf auction, I play this as penalty oriented. Of course partner is free to pull it.
Unless the opps are suicidal maniacs, how good can my hand be?
We are in a gf auction, I play this as penalty oriented. Of course partner is free to pull it.
Unless the opps are suicidal maniacs, how good can my hand be?
I think both vulnerable. Not sure.
So he pulled the double. The whole auction went...
1D P 2C (2S)
dbl P 3S P
3N P 4D P
5D P 6D
I had opened with J9xx Kxxx AQxxx void and he held Qx Q Kxx AKQxxxx. I know by opening was light. Sometimes this pays off and sometimes I get hung. After pd's 2C bid it looked like a misfit. Yeah, I'd rather have better than J9xx now, but do I really want to pass now and give partner the idea that I may have tolerance for his suit?
In 6D, we lost two spades, one heart, and a trump trick for down 3. 3N made at the other table. Not sure what happens to 2S doubled.
If double shows extra, then I understand partner's bidding, but I'm pretty sure this is a minority treatment.
#5
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Posted 2012-December-16, 05:30
I don't understand partner's bidding.
Let's assume that double shows a good hand. Partner pulls and bids 3S, which I'll assume is asking for a spade stopper in a semi-balanced hand.
I bid 3NT showing a spade stopper.
Partner now bids 4D, showing that 3S was a spade control rather than asking for a stopper, and suggesting a diamond slam.
I now make the weakest bid I can make, refusing to cue bid either the ace of hearts or the ace of spades. Therefore saying I don't have those cards.
6D is off this planet.
If partner assumed that double was a good hand, then I suggest this sequence:
1D P 2C (2S)
X 3C - still forcing, no need to jump
3NT 4C - suggestion of a slam try
4NT - Not interested.
Which should now end the auction.
Let's assume that double shows a good hand. Partner pulls and bids 3S, which I'll assume is asking for a spade stopper in a semi-balanced hand.
I bid 3NT showing a spade stopper.
Partner now bids 4D, showing that 3S was a spade control rather than asking for a stopper, and suggesting a diamond slam.
I now make the weakest bid I can make, refusing to cue bid either the ace of hearts or the ace of spades. Therefore saying I don't have those cards.
6D is off this planet.
If partner assumed that double was a good hand, then I suggest this sequence:
1D P 2C (2S)
X 3C - still forcing, no need to jump
3NT 4C - suggestion of a slam try
4NT - Not interested.
Which should now end the auction.
#6
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Posted 2012-December-16, 05:32
For us, X is hearts and doesn't show extras, but we don't play 2/1, in the GF auction it makes more sense for it to be pens, but I don't think you have the hand for it.
There are some hands where partner has 4 hearts and one spade that you will not be getting close to enough out of this.
There are some hands where partner has 4 hearts and one spade that you will not be getting close to enough out of this.
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Posted 2012-December-16, 08:18
no,it was not penalty but for showing good hand,of couse ,it is allowed for pd to convert into penalty cooperatively.
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Posted 2012-December-16, 09:10
I play it as penalties.
#9
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Posted 2012-December-16, 10:27
I play it as penalties as well, but I don't think I'd bid it with J9xx
#10
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Posted 2012-December-16, 12:55
Should be cooperative penalty - we have the balance of power. Some 3=3=5=2 is likely though 3=3=4=3 is possible.
If pure penalty 4=3=4=2, or 4=3=5=1 South would pass and await partner's reopening double.
Playing BoP cooperative doubles here is a big plus. Those hand shapes come up more often, more points are to be won, and we can still cope with pure penalty situations when they arise.
If pure penalty 4=3=4=2, or 4=3=5=1 South would pass and await partner's reopening double.
Playing BoP cooperative doubles here is a big plus. Those hand shapes come up more often, more points are to be won, and we can still cope with pure penalty situations when they arise.
Be the partner you want to play with.
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
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Posted 2012-December-16, 13:13
straube, on 2012-December-15, 23:45, said:
The auction went:
1D ( P ) 2C ( 2S )
DBL
1D ( P ) 2C ( 2S )
DBL
Some play Support DBLs even for the minors ( here it would show 3 cards ♣ ) and not necessarily to the same level as for the Majors.
Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
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#12
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Posted 2012-December-16, 13:21
It should be a penalty double.
Partner has shown a strong hand, so there's no need for opener to have a card showing double.
If the auction had been, say, 1 D - P - 1H - (2S) - Dbl, the double would have been card showing because partner's 1 H response is ambiguous. It could show anything from a scraggly 4 or 5 to 20. So there's a need to establish that your side has the balance of the points even when pard has the minimum.
Partner has shown a strong hand, so there's no need for opener to have a card showing double.
If the auction had been, say, 1 D - P - 1H - (2S) - Dbl, the double would have been card showing because partner's 1 H response is ambiguous. It could show anything from a scraggly 4 or 5 to 20. So there's a need to establish that your side has the balance of the points even when pard has the minimum.
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Posted 2012-December-16, 15:34
you are in a FP seq., standard FP rules would say, that the double
is for penalty.
We play double as T/O, ... all low level doubles being for T/O, as
long as there are unbid suits.
With kind regards
Marlowe
is for penalty.
We play double as T/O, ... all low level doubles being for T/O, as
long as there are unbid suits.
With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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Posted 2012-December-16, 15:42
Added: After seeing the later bidding: 6D is ..., did you ever promise
a first of second round control in spade? No. All you showed was a stopper.
So even, if X showed add. strength, the 2S bidder can still hold have AKxxxx
and a 4/5 card suit on the side, risky yes, insane maybe, possible for sure.
With kind regards
Marlowe
a first of second round control in spade? No. All you showed was a stopper.
So even, if X showed add. strength, the 2S bidder can still hold have AKxxxx
and a 4/5 card suit on the side, risky yes, insane maybe, possible for sure.
With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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Posted 2012-December-16, 16:45
SteveMoe, on 2012-December-16, 12:55, said:
Should be cooperative penalty - we have the balance of power. Some 3=3=5=2 is likely though 3=3=4=3 is possible.
If pure penalty 4=3=4=2, or 4=3=5=1 South would pass and await partner's reopening double.
Playing BoP cooperative doubles here is a big plus. Those hand shapes come up more often, more points are to be won, and we can still cope with pure penalty situations when they arise.
If pure penalty 4=3=4=2, or 4=3=5=1 South would pass and await partner's reopening double.
Playing BoP cooperative doubles here is a big plus. Those hand shapes come up more often, more points are to be won, and we can still cope with pure penalty situations when they arise.
I don't get it, we always have the balance of power.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
#16
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Posted 2012-December-16, 17:53
I think it's normal and obvious to play it as penalties.
If I had J9xx Kxxx AQxxx void I'd be delighted to make a penalty double. A moment ago I was expecting to find myself either fighting off slam tries or going two down in 3NT. Instead, I have a chance to defend 2♠x with a trump trick, a void in partner's suit, and some quick tricks on the side.
If I had J9xx Kxxx AQxxx void I'd be delighted to make a penalty double. A moment ago I was expecting to find myself either fighting off slam tries or going two down in 3NT. Instead, I have a chance to defend 2♠x with a trump trick, a void in partner's suit, and some quick tricks on the side.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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Posted 2012-December-16, 18:06
gwnn, on 2012-December-16, 16:45, said:
I don't get it, we always have the balance of power.
Precisely.
What we want is a way to differentiate pure penalty 4=3=4=2 or 4=3=5=1 from misfitting strength - 3=3=5=2 / 3=3=4=3.
we can make a forcing pass with ♠ length expecting partner to reopen. We can double with 3 card ♠s to show a strong misfit.
I apologize if the term BoP misdirects - not my intention. Partner's 2♣ bid establishes BoP and a force. This double is more useful as cooperative penalty. 3 trumps and tolerance at best for partner's suit. Rarely taken out, but responder should not expect a trump stack.
Be the partner you want to play with.
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
#18
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Posted 2012-December-16, 20:59
This shows H for me and I certainly do not play this as penalties. We pick up the penalty x by passing first.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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Posted 2012-December-19, 00:19
gnasher, on 2012-December-16, 17:53, said:
I think it's normal and obvious to play it as penalties.
If I had J9xx Kxxx AQxxx void I'd be delighted to make a penalty double. A moment ago I was expecting to find myself either fighting off slam tries or going two down in 3NT. Instead, I have a chance to defend 2♠x with a trump trick, a void in partner's suit, and some quick tricks on the side.
If I had J9xx Kxxx AQxxx void I'd be delighted to make a penalty double. A moment ago I was expecting to find myself either fighting off slam tries or going two down in 3NT. Instead, I have a chance to defend 2♠x with a trump trick, a void in partner's suit, and some quick tricks on the side.
I'm agreeing and changing my answer to penalties.
Had checked references and M. Bergen advocates Cooperative while Wolsey advocates penalty, implying shortness in partner's 2/1 suit. I think Kit's and your approach is better.
Be the partner you want to play with.
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
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Posted 2012-December-19, 00:35
Penalty, presumably with four trumps, is completely standard in a forcing auction
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