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North opens 1D out of turn when East is dealer and is not accepted.
Auction proceeds
1S-Pass-4NT-Pass
5C-Pass-6S-all pass
4NT was keycard ask
5C showed West was missing one keycard between the partnership.
West holding KJ109 of spades was about to ask for the spade queen when he realized East would be able to force an opening spade lead under the new 2017 laws.
Is this correct?
Quick question - 2017 lead penalties
#1
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Posted 2017-June-17, 17:47
#2
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Posted 2017-June-17, 20:02
Yes.
The emphasis in Law 26B1 is mine.
So, South leads a low spade, East plays the J (or the 9 or the 10) from dummy, and North plays a low spade. Which way should declarer finesse on the second round?
Quote
LAW 31 - BID OUT OF ROTATION
When a player has bid out of rotation, has passed artificially or has passed partner’s artificial call (see Law 30C) and the call is cancelled, the option in Law 29A not having been exercised, the following provisions apply:
A. RHO’s Turn to Call
When the offender has called at his RHO’s turn to call, then:
1. If that opponent passes, offender must repeat the call out of rotation, and when that call is legal there is no rectification.
2. If that opponent makes a legal8 bid, double or redouble, offender may make any legal call:
(a) When the call is a comparable call (see Law 23A), there is no further rectification. Law 26B does not apply, but see Law 23C.
(b) When the call is not a comparable call (see Law 23A), offender’s partner must pass when next it is his turn to call. Laws 16C, 26B and 72C may apply.
B. Partner’s or LHO’s Turn to Call
When the offender has bid at his partner’s turn to call, or at his LHO’s turn to call if the offender has not previously called, then:
1. Offender’s partner may make any legal call at his proper turn, but Law 16C2 applies.
2. Offender may make any legal call at his correct turn and the Director rules as in A2(a) or A2(b) above.
C. Later Bids at LHO’s Turn to Call
Later bids at LHO’s turn to call are treated as changes of call and Law 25 applies.
When a player has bid out of rotation, has passed artificially or has passed partner’s artificial call (see Law 30C) and the call is cancelled, the option in Law 29A not having been exercised, the following provisions apply:
A. RHO’s Turn to Call
When the offender has called at his RHO’s turn to call, then:
1. If that opponent passes, offender must repeat the call out of rotation, and when that call is legal there is no rectification.
2. If that opponent makes a legal8 bid, double or redouble, offender may make any legal call:
(a) When the call is a comparable call (see Law 23A), there is no further rectification. Law 26B does not apply, but see Law 23C.
(b) When the call is not a comparable call (see Law 23A), offender’s partner must pass when next it is his turn to call. Laws 16C, 26B and 72C may apply.
B. Partner’s or LHO’s Turn to Call
When the offender has bid at his partner’s turn to call, or at his LHO’s turn to call if the offender has not previously called, then:
1. Offender’s partner may make any legal call at his proper turn, but Law 16C2 applies.
2. Offender may make any legal call at his correct turn and the Director rules as in A2(a) or A2(b) above.
C. Later Bids at LHO’s Turn to Call
Later bids at LHO’s turn to call are treated as changes of call and Law 25 applies.
Quote
LAW 26 – CALL WITHDRAWN, LEAD RESTRICTIONS
...
B. Lead Restrictions
When an offending player’s call is withdrawn and it is not replaced by a comparable call, then if he becomes a defender declarer may, at the offender’s partner’s first turn to lead (which may be the opening lead) either:
1. require the offender’s partner to lead any (one) suit which has not been specified in the legal auction by the offender; or
2. prohibit offender’s partner from leading any (one) suit which has not been specified in the legal auction by the offender. Such prohibition continues for as long as the offender’s partner retains the lead.
...
B. Lead Restrictions
When an offending player’s call is withdrawn and it is not replaced by a comparable call, then if he becomes a defender declarer may, at the offender’s partner’s first turn to lead (which may be the opening lead) either:
1. require the offender’s partner to lead any (one) suit which has not been specified in the legal auction by the offender; or
2. prohibit offender’s partner from leading any (one) suit which has not been specified in the legal auction by the offender. Such prohibition continues for as long as the offender’s partner retains the lead.
The emphasis in Law 26B1 is mine.
So, South leads a low spade, East plays the J (or the 9 or the 10) from dummy, and North plays a low spade. Which way should declarer finesse on the second round?
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#3
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Posted 2017-June-17, 20:50
Thanks - that is how I read it also.
It seems strange to either "require ..any one suit" OR to "prohibit ... any one suit".
Just require one of those suits you were not going to prohibit. Seems pointless to need the the prohibit part in 26B2!
(Perhaps there is a theoretical reason for a case involving multiple suits shown or not shown by withdrawn calls, but 99% of cases can be dealt with by 26B1 only to pick a suit (not specified in the legal auction by the offender) and make the defender lead it.
It seems strange to either "require ..any one suit" OR to "prohibit ... any one suit".
Just require one of those suits you were not going to prohibit. Seems pointless to need the the prohibit part in 26B2!
(Perhaps there is a theoretical reason for a case involving multiple suits shown or not shown by withdrawn calls, but 99% of cases can be dealt with by 26B1 only to pick a suit (not specified in the legal auction by the offender) and make the defender lead it.
#4
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Posted 2017-June-17, 23:29
Yes but a change to this, deleting 26B1, is imminent.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
London UK
#5
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Posted 2017-June-18, 02:57
gordontd, on 2017-June-17, 23:29, said:
Yes but a change to this, deleting 26B1, is imminent.
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Posted 2017-June-18, 07:08
nige1, on 2017-June-18, 02:57, said:
Wow -- a rational clarification and simplification? Not a radical change but another welcome break with WBFLC tradition
It was already simplified from the last edition and less frequent in application but rather harsh when it did apply.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
London UK
#7
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Posted 2017-June-18, 10:51
gordontd, on 2017-June-17, 23:29, said:
Yes but a change to this, deleting 26B1, is imminent.
Oh? What happened to "no changes for ten years"?
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#8
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Posted 2017-June-18, 12:42
gordontd, on 2017-June-17, 23:29, said:
Yes but a change to this, deleting 26B1, is imminent.
Does "imminent" mean "ooops, that was a bit harsh, we're going to correct this in the next month or two"?
Or is this change expected September of this year or later?
#9
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Posted 2017-June-18, 13:10
blackshoe, on 2017-June-17, 20:02, said:
Yes.
The emphasis in Law 26B1 is mine.
So, South leads a low spade, East plays the J (or the 9 or the 10) from dummy, and North plays a low spade. Which way should declarer finesse on the second round?
The emphasis in Law 26B1 is mine.
So, South leads a low spade, East plays the J (or the 9 or the 10) from dummy, and North plays a low spade. Which way should declarer finesse on the second round?
Since I assumed 5-card major openings and both defenders followed suit with a 9-plus card trump fit, the queen is coming down on the next two trump leads.
#10
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Posted 2017-June-18, 14:11
BudH, on 2017-June-18, 13:10, said:
Since I assumed 5-card major openings and both defenders followed suit with a 9-plus card trump fit, the queen is coming down on the next two trump leads.
An indirect answer, but you got the point.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#11
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Posted 2017-June-19, 00:27
BudH, on 2017-June-18, 12:42, said:
Does "imminent" mean "ooops, that was a bit harsh, we're going to correct this in the next month or two"?
Or is this change expected September of this year or later?
Or is this change expected September of this year or later?
Sooner than that. It has already been notified to TDs and I think NBOs but the precise wording not yet released.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
London UK
#12
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Posted 2017-June-19, 03:59
gordontd, on 2017-June-19, 00:27, said:
Sooner than that. It has already been notified to TDs and I think NBOs but the precise wording not yet released.
Thanks, Gordon! I created a short Powerpoint presentation to begin training local ACBL club directors later today on the new laws and Law 26B1 is presently included in my presentation. I likely will show it "struck out" and mention this part is expected to be removed from the new laws.
The exact wording should be easy to predict with 26B1 deleted so there will be no need for a 26B1 or 26B2 with wording such as the following:
B. Lead Restrictions
"When an offending player’s call is withdrawn and it is not replaced by a comparable call, then if he becomes a defender declarer may, at the offender’s partner’s first turn to lead (which may be the opening lead) prohibit offender’s partner from leading any (one) suit which has not been specified in the legal auction by the offender. Such prohibition continues for as long as the offender’s partner retains the lead."
#13
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Posted 2017-June-19, 08:30
gordontd, on 2017-June-19, 00:27, said:
Sooner than that. It has already been notified to TDs and I think NBOs but the precise wording not yet released.
Not to this TD. Not that anyone cares about me.
Who's doing this? WBFLC? Do you know if anything's going on wrt this issue in the ACBL? (They may be waiting for the WBF to do its thing).
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#14
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Posted 2017-June-19, 17:48
blackshoe, on 2017-June-19, 08:30, said:
Not to this TD. Not that anyone cares about me.
Who's doing this? WBFLC? Do you know if anything's going on wrt this issue in the ACBL? (They may be waiting for the WBF to do its thing).
Who's doing this? WBFLC? Do you know if anything's going on wrt this issue in the ACBL? (They may be waiting for the WBF to do its thing).
Good reason for the ACBL to wait until September on one of the Mondays after Labor Day to implement the new laws. The kinks can be worked out by others, then they can arrange printing of the law books and other materials starting in July or August.
Note that in 2008, there was a full page article describing law changes in the July issue. Less than a month away for ACBL members!
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Posted 2017-June-20, 02:31
I am not sure that the change is necessary. People should not bid out of turn or make insufficient bids, and the penalty should always be sufficient that they cannot gain, unless declarer makes an unlucky choice of course.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
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Posted 2017-June-20, 08:11
lamford, on 2017-June-20, 02:31, said:
I am not sure that the change is necessary. People should not bid out of turn or make insufficient bids, and the penalty should always be sufficient that they cannot gain, unless declarer makes an unlucky choice of course.
Being low down in the pecking order I haven't received anything - but can someone in the know confirm that 26B1 has now been abolished and there is nothing to replace it - i.e. declarer now has NO OPTION to demand the lead of ANY suit?
No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
#17
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Posted 2017-June-20, 09:01
In the email list for the 2017 Laws, Adam Wildavsky replied:
Quote
I've heard that the WBF management committee voted in favor of this change today (Monday), which would mean that it will be implemented. I'd expect official word soon.
#18
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Posted 2017-June-20, 17:03
Link to the change: http://www.worldbrid...visedLaw26B.pdf
You can download an updated copy of the whole law book too.
I'm told that the ACBL Bulletin's "Ruling the Game" column will run some (I don't know how many) articles about the new laws starting with the July issue. I've not heard anything yet about an implementation date here.
You can download an updated copy of the whole law book too.
I'm told that the ACBL Bulletin's "Ruling the Game" column will run some (I don't know how many) articles about the new laws starting with the July issue. I've not heard anything yet about an implementation date here.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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Posted 2017-June-20, 17:08
blackshoe, on 2017-June-20, 17:03, said:
Link to the change: http://www.worldbrid...visedLaw26B.pdf
You can download an updated copy of the whole law book too.
I'm told that the ACBL Bulletin's "Ruling the Game" column will run some (I don't know how many) articles about the new laws starting with the July issue. I've not heard anything yet about an implementation date here.
You can download an updated copy of the whole law book too.
I'm told that the ACBL Bulletin's "Ruling the Game" column will run some (I don't know how many) articles about the new laws starting with the July issue. I've not heard anything yet about an implementation date here.
Didn't WBFLC declare September 30 as the time limit before which the new laws should come into force? I believe I have seen that somewhere?
#20
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Posted 2017-June-20, 17:10
pran, on 2017-June-20, 17:08, said:
Didn't WBFLC declare September 30 as the time limit before which the new laws should come into force? I believe I have seen that somewhere?
Yes, they did. Which is why I've posted a couple of times now that I expect they will go into effect in North America at 11:59 PM on that date.
But the ACBL has made no official announcement yet.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean