Checkback Stayman
#61
Posted 2016-June-02, 05:32
Opening the minor first is not my system (I will always open the major with two four-card suits) and I'm not sure that I am aware of any good MODERN books on this approach.
Things to consider include:
- Responses: As Stephen Tu noted above, if you are not always opening your four-card major, responder needs to respond in a four-card major rather than responding up-the-line (the preferred approach if you always open the four-card major). This is important as the major might get "lost" - particularly if the opponents interfere.
- Rebids: Do you always rebid 1NT with a balanced hand in the strong NT range (relying on check-back to identify any major suit fit)? Or can you sometimes rebid the major?
- Since you open a minor in preference to a major, the 1M opening will "often" show a five-card suit. A One Spade opening will nearly always promise a five-card suit (assuming you open 1H with 4-4 in the majors). When is it safe to raise (or compete) on a three-card suit?
#62
Posted 2016-June-02, 05:36
#63
Posted 2016-June-02, 05:37
helene_t, on 2016-June-02, 05:24, said:
Game forcing on 18-19 is still a bit much, even if the responses are up to strength.
Personally I rebid 1NT on 15-18 and I am more relaxed with a 19-20 GF 2NT rebid. (But the wide range 1NT rebid does need more "system" to make it work).
#64
Posted 2016-June-02, 05:46
I don't want this to sound harsh but imo as much as we can discuss the nuances of whether to open 4m or 4M etc. the brutal truth is that your base system i.e. acol just isnt very good.
#65
Posted 2016-June-02, 05:55
eagles123, on 2016-June-02, 05:46, said:
I don't want this to sound harsh but imo as much as we can discuss the nuances of whether to open 4m or 4M etc. the brutal truth is that your base system i.e. acol just isnt very good.
I can't really agree with this.
It is true that very few top-level, world-class players play Acol. But since we are not at that level yet, Acol is perfectly playable. It is far more important to thoroughly know your system than to worry about which system to choose. The biggest difficulty with Acol for aspiring players is that there is less and less good quality material published.
#66
Posted 2016-June-02, 06:08
Tramticket, on 2016-June-02, 05:55, said:
It is true that very few top-level, world-class players play Acol. But since we are not at that level yet, Acol is perfectly playable. It is far more important to thoroughly know your system than to worry about which system to choose. The biggest difficulty with Acol for aspiring players is that there is less and less good quality material published.
I never said it was unplayable just not very good, and my point is that if you're going to put effort into for example playing checkback etc, then surely it's better to start with a better base system
#67
Posted 2016-June-02, 06:10
For me, personally, Acol doesn't work so great as I get most of my inspiration from this forum, from advanced books, and from Dutch experts. But playing with a partner who doesn't want to spend a lot of time reading BBF and using other advanced sources, I prefer to play Acol as it is an important part of the maturation process of an English bridge player to discuss the hands after the session in the pub together with the better club players. And they mostly play Acol. Even if they don't play Acol in their regular partnerships, Acol is still the lingua franca.
Also, most of my partners play Acol in their other partnerships. I don't want to confuse them with bidding theory which may or may not apply in their other partnerships.
I don't necessarily disagree with Rowland. Rowland lives in London where the better club players tend to play 2/1. That makes a big difference.
#68
Posted 2016-June-02, 06:57
Unfortunately Five-card Majors / Strong No Trump is becoming increasing dominant in world bridge - but I suspect that this is due more to the internet (including BBF/BBO) than intrinsic merit.
#69
Posted 2016-June-02, 07:29
Tramticket, on 2016-June-02, 06:57, said:
I suspect that it has relatively little to do with BBO. Strong NT and 5cM has been the dominant force on the world scene for quite some time as far as I can gather. I think it has more to do with a few of the better British players (by which I don't just mean internationals) giving it a go and liking it.
#70
Posted 2016-June-02, 08:02
Tramticket, on 2016-June-02, 06:57, said:
Unfortunately Five-card Majors / Strong No Trump is becoming increasing dominant in world bridge - but I suspect that this is due more to the internet (including BBF/BBO) than intrinsic merit.
I play weak and 5 and like it a lot. Actually I think that that and strong and four are the most sensible combinations. If forced to play string and five I prefer to just play 2/1 GF.
#71
Posted 2016-June-02, 08:09
Vampyr, on 2016-June-02, 08:02, said:
yes i think 4 card majors are fine and a weak no trump is fine, it's just the combination of them both together that I don't like.
#72
Posted 2016-June-02, 08:11
eagles123, on 2016-June-02, 05:46, said:
I don't want this to sound harsh but imo as much as we can discuss the nuances of whether to open 4m or 4M etc. the brutal truth is that your base system i.e. acol just isnt very good.
It just isn't possible for many players. Almost nobody around here (ignoring those too good to partner inexperienced players) plays anything other than some variant of Benji (there's the odd 3 weak 2s, and a few precisionistas). So, if you want to play strong and 5, you won't have anyone to play it with, or, if you really insist on muddling through, anyone to help you out when things go wrong.
#73
Posted 2016-June-02, 08:11
Tramticket, on 2016-June-02, 05:32, said:
- Rebids: Do you always rebid 1NT with a balanced hand in the strong NT range (relying on check-back to identify any major suit fit)? Or can you sometimes rebid the major?
Our 'book' says that we should not be hung up on always rebidding 1NT. If the major is a good one - eg KJ98, and a poor doubleton then rebid the major rather than 1NT.
Tramticket, on 2016-June-02, 05:32, said:
- Since you open a minor in preference to a major, the 1M opening will "often" show a five-card suit. A One Spade opening will nearly always promise a five-card suit (assuming you open 1H with 4-4 in the majors). When is it safe to raise (or compete) on a three-card suit?
Good point. As I remember it, a 1 Spade opening bid will have 5 spades, or 4 spades & 15+ points, and ditto a 1 Heart opening 97% of the time, only exception being when 4441 with a club singleton. So with 5-8 points I would raise with 3 card support including one honour (AKQJ or 10), 6-9 HCP, and an outside doubleton rather than bid 1NT. I will remind partner of this (it is in our book!)
#74
Posted 2016-June-02, 08:21
eagles123, on 2016-June-02, 05:46, said:
I don't want this to sound harsh but imo as much as we can discuss the nuances of whether to open 4m or 4M etc. the brutal truth is that your base system i.e. acol just isnt very good.
Maybe so, but not sure how you reckon that's going to help me. I am retired and have no desire to emigrate. I quite like my playing partner, and, even if I wanted to, I doubt very much if i could find a partner locally that plays strong and 5 card majors or would be willing to team up with me while we both start again from scratch.
#75
Posted 2016-June-02, 08:35
I will be playing 2 national finals the next 2 weekends in 2 different partnerships, one where we open the minor, one where we open the major, I prefer the former style, but the latter is perfectly playable.
My Acol based 4M system is not one I'd recommend copying, but in a curious sort of way, we solve the issue of 1m-1♥-1N-P missing a spade fit by making our 1N rebid wide ranging and potentially strong enough that we rarely pass it. This has the downside that we play in a bad 2N occasionally, but the considerable upside that we can use 1m-1M-2N as GF unbalanced to solve the death hand issue among others as there is no gap between the 1N rebid and 2N opener (we split at bad/good 19).
There are many ways to skin a cat, and unless you're laying at really top level, there is room for most things. Most systems have their issues (if you look through these boards, you'll find a lot of "we missed our 5 or 6-4 club fit in competition because I didn't know partner had more than 2" type threads from the strong/5 brigade).
#76
Posted 2016-June-02, 12:16
Liversidge, on 2016-June-02, 08:11, said:
Then toss the book. Do not rebid a 4-card major suit. Ever.
#77
Posted 2016-June-02, 13:31
Stephen Tu, on 2016-June-01, 21:34, said:
Certainly that will work for a GF hand. What about a similar invitational hand? Same sequence?
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I don't disagree, but part of the decision to use or not use it may be the extent you're willing to use Walsh (bypass longer ♦ suit with weaker hands). Also, in some cases, doing everything one way may be easier to absorb and remember. Take your choice.
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Right about 2 ♣ so you'd have to jump to 3 ♣ to force. As for jumps being invitational, I'm thinking back to Bergen's articles in the Bridge Bulletin back in the late '70s when he explained NMF and a lot of other modern bidding innovations to the wide ACBL audience. I believe by that time jumps were being played as invitational. But you hit on the important point that there was no easy way to show both invitational and game forcing. I just thought this was a good point to bring up to make a newer player aware of and to consider.
#78
Posted 2016-June-02, 14:19
Vampyr, on 2016-June-02, 12:16, said:
Apologies. If you read the quote from Tramtickets post immediately above my comment you will see that I was responding (in bad grammar) to a Checkback question on whether partner and I would always rebid 1NT after opening 1C with 15-17 HCP and partner responded 1D. My intended meaning was that with a good four card major and a small doubleton "my rebid could well be in the major".
#79
Posted 2016-June-02, 17:35
Liversidge, on 2016-June-02, 14:19, said:
ah right. Sorry!