Raising the suit of opponent
#21
Posted 2016-May-25, 13:06
#22
Posted 2016-May-25, 15:12
Lovera, on 2016-May-25, 13:06, said:
Not really because you also have an additional level of bidding. With a limit raise you cue and do not bid beyond 2♠. With what would be a minimum GF opposite an opening you cue and commit to the 3 level. And with a stronger hand still you have enough for game even opposite an overcall. There are other ways of playing of course but this is an easy one even for intermediates to follow.
#23
Posted 2016-May-25, 15:33
Oct 2006: Mission impossible
Soon: Mission illegal
#24
Posted 2016-May-25, 17:14
Zelandakh, on 2016-May-25, 15:12, said:
Perhaps i am partially agree with you (but see it later). About ambiguity this is referred at the way in which the argoument is talked around considering "togheter/contemporaneally(=line of opener vs defence)" this type of bidding. So, i think, is less clear.
#25
Posted 2016-May-26, 09:15
#26
Posted 2016-May-26, 11:43
#27
Posted 2016-May-26, 13:25
An older style barmar mentioned keeps the jump raise as invitational so the cue is gf. This makes some slam bidding easier since responder promises about a K more but gives up the ability to preempt with the weak hand. If this is the case your range of 14+ would be weird, because people want to force game with 13 only and many 12s also. And the invite jump raise should include 11s and many 10s because raising to 2 only would be insufficiently encouraging.
#28
Posted 2016-May-27, 08:15
Stephen Tu, on 2016-May-26, 13:25, said:
An older style barmar mentioned keeps the jump raise as invitational so the cue is gf. This makes some slam bidding easier since responder promises about a K more but gives up the ability to preempt with the weak hand. If this is the case your range of 14+ would be weird, because people want to force game with 13 only and many 12s also. And the invite jump raise should include 11s and many 10s because raising to 2 only would be insufficiently encouraging.
If you are referring at when pairs bidding is not interferred than a direct jumping (i.e. 1♠-p-3♠ is strong (14-18 points) otherwise, if is interferred to favourite intervention for other lower biddings the range of force is amplied by system (that combines alternatively direct and delayed for raising ). About my observation on 3♥ i have indicated this force (14/+) considering a different type in bidding (=not jumping) that, for mine advise, allow to insert it.
#29
Posted 2016-May-27, 09:36
Lovera, on 2016-May-27, 08:15, said:
Most people these days don't play that as strong. It's usually a limit raise (10-12 points, and probably a 4-card suit). But people who play Bergen Raises use it as a preemptive (weak) raise. Strong raises are usually shown with artificial conventions, such as Jacoby 2NT.
#30
Posted 2016-May-27, 09:40
Lovera, on 2016-May-27, 08:15, said:
No, I was only talking about bidding when there is competition. 1♠-(2♥)-3♠ is usually played as weak (0-~6), or weak mixed (~4-7), not invitational (10-12).
Quote
People haven't played jump raises as strong in duplicate circles for many, many decades (still used in some rubber bridge clubs that don't use any modern bidding methods). You need to stop using books published before 1950 as your references. At least restrict yourself to books published after 1980. Nobody uses 1♠-p-3♠ as strong/forcing anymore, it's invitational (10-12) or weak.
Also, requiring 14 points to GF is way too conservative. 13 is enough to GF, as are good 12s. And even fewer HCP when shapely and having ruffing values.
#31
Posted 2016-May-27, 11:03
Stephen Tu, on 2016-May-27, 09:40, said:
People haven't played jump raises as strong in duplicate circles for many, many decades (still used in some rubber bridge clubs that don't use any modern bidding methods). You need to stop using books published before 1950 as your references. At least restrict yourself to books published after 1980. Nobody uses 1♠-p-3♠ as strong/forcing anymore, it's invitational (10-12) or weak.
Also, requiring 14 points to GF is way too conservative. 13 is enough to GF, as are good 12s. And even fewer HCP when shapely and having ruffing values.
Yes and for instance i have not books (to use for) published before 1950. The indication was, among other ones, for a direct raising at 3rd level in system but not the lonely for this aim (and the same for pointing). Althoug, playing in clubs as already told, i have had rescountring by players and score in this (i know old-fashioned) way. Infact this topic try to explore bidding for up-to-dating/integrating in system that i use.
#32
Posted 2016-May-27, 12:20
Stephen Tu, on 2016-May-27, 09:40, said:
What's your problem with the Culbertson system
#33
Posted 2016-May-28, 10:26
Lovera, on 2016-May-17, 10:17, said:
I teach it to my students as soon as we come to the part where opponents bid too. I never teach them michaels or other conventions that requires cuebid. . They learn that it means either support +11+ hcp or asks stopper for 3 NT in competitive auctions or to create a forcing auction (for example responding to a T/O double etc) and teach them how to separate them from each other. I mainly focus on these 3 functions of cue bids.
I am also surprised just like Richard and Barmar that you have not seen this being used among real players just like GIB.
From your posts you sound like a logical person. Let me try to tell why it is important, especially when the suit is a major suit. If you do not use cue as a support, then as you mentioned already, you will have to raise the suit. You will raise to 2 and 3 or 4. Depending on your strength. Here is why this is not optimal use of them
- You do not want to end up at 3 level when you have to jump to 3, especially with only 3 card support.
- You lose a lot of space just to show 3 vard fit and 11 hcp.
- 4 card fit is very vital. We all desire to know whether we have a 5-4 or 6-4 fit or a 5-3 fit. This helps us a lot to re evaluate our hand. It is not optimal to disable yourself from showing this to partner just because you do not have strength to jump to 3. And pd will never know with how many trumps you support him. So cues allow you to jump raise pd with 4-5 trumps and weak hands.
- IF your cue does not promise a support, partner, instead of being able to jump to game, not being sure there is a fit, will be forced to make bids that can be used for much better purposes had he/she known the fit.
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#35
Posted 2016-May-28, 13:48
barmar, on 2016-May-28, 12:05, said:
And infact i have told "to use for" meaning bidding in real play but excluding although for ideas that from when bridge "was instituied" are in a great number and anytime forgotten.
#36
Posted 2016-May-28, 13:52
barmar, on 2016-May-27, 09:36, said:
..that i cannot use having it for other use and art. conv. have to be compatibile with a natural system.
#37
Posted 2016-May-28, 14:27
MrAce, on 2016-May-28, 10:26, said:
I am also surprised just like Richard and Barmar that you have not seen this being used among real players just like GIB.
From your posts you sound like a logical person. Let me try to tell why it is important, especially when the suit is a major suit. If you do not use cue as a support, then as you mentioned already, you will have to raise the suit. You will raise to 2 and 3 or 4. Depending on your strength. Here is why this is not optimal use of them
- You do not want to end up at 3 level when you have to jump to 3, especially with only 3 card support.
- You lose a lot of space just to show 3 vard fit and 11 hcp.
- 4 card fit is very vital. We all desire to know whether we have a 5-4 or 6-4 fit or a 5-3 fit. This helps us a lot to re evaluate our hand. It is not optimal to disable yourself from showing this to partner just because you do not have strength to jump to 3. And pd will never know with how many trumps you support him. So cues allow you to jump raise pd with 4-5 trumps and weak hands.
- IF your cue does not promise a support, partner, instead of being able to jump to game, not being sure there is a fit, will be forced to make bids that can be used for much better purposes had he/she known the fit.
Hi, tkx for your post: about the first part, i already knew and agree with you. And i too wonder myself for this type of bidding (UCB,..) because also in book(s) was not threated (i don't speak of Michaels or T/O reponse) but also Gib, i think, last year didn't use this bidding and in GCC there is not any indication.
#39
Posted 2016-May-29, 02:30
This post has been edited by Lovera: 2016-May-29, 14:18
#40
Posted 2016-May-29, 02:53
Ihavefoundtwohandsandrelativebiddingsin"BRIDGEGAGNANTTouslessecretsdelaréussite"byBertrandRomanet.Thefirst:N♠AKxx♥9xxx♦xx♣KQxE♠10xx♥AJ♣K10xxxx♦xxS♠QJxx♥10xx♦x♣AJxxxW♠xx♥KQxx♦AQxx♣xxxBidding1♣-(1♦)-1♠-(2♣),2♠-(p)-3♣-(3♦),3♠-(p)-p-(4♦),p-(p)-4♠-(p),,p-(double)-allpassing.Herethereisperhapsthepossibilitytojumpingincluboralsocueinspade.Thesecondhandis:N♠QJx♥Q97x♦Jxxx♣KJS♠xx♥A106x♦AKx♣98xxE♠K10xx♥KJ8x♦102♣A10xBidding(pairs)(p)-p-(1♣)-1♥,(1♠)-2♥-(2♠)-p,(p)-3♥-(double)-allpassing.Hereinsteadof2♥byNcouldbebidded2♣meaning10/11pointsandfourcards(withalmostanhonorcard)inheartsuit..