Help
Looking at the auctions (in a 14-16 or 15-17 NT context for whatever difference that makes) 1N-2D!-2H-?? and 1N-2H!-2S-?? as discussed in this thread http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry815534
I don't fully understand what people are proposing for openers rebids. I have highlighted the bits that are confusing the hell out of me in bold.
1N-2C-2red-2S: is now 5 spades, Invitational (you lose the 5-4 invitational option)
1N-2D!-2H:
2S: Invitational with 5 hearts, balanced.
2N: 4+ ♣s (3C is then fit showing)
3C: 4+ ♦s (3D is then fit showing)
3D: Invitational or slam try with 6+ ♥s
3H: Invitational with 5/5 majors (am I getting this right?)
3S: Choice of games gadget
3N: Choice of games gadget
(where does the 3S as a self splinter go? I guess transfer instead?)
Then after 1N-2H!-2S:
2N: 4+ clubs
3C: 4+ diamonds
3D: 4+ Hearts??
3H: 5/5 GF???
3S: Invitational with 6+ spades
3N: Choice of games
I'm pretty sure I'm misunderstanding the spades response structure. Mgeotze's post state that 3D is the 5/5 GF option, but that doesn't make any sense. Can anyone tell me what is going on or have I missed something completely obvious.
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Responders rebids after a red suit transfer Trying to understand some previous threads
#1
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Posted 2014-November-30, 07:58
#2
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Posted 2014-November-30, 09:45
The reason you are confused, I would guess, is because the other thread has lots of people posting their own favourite bits of kit. There is no reason to expect that amalgamating lots of different systems will result in one coherent whole.
I could offer you one set of continuations (e.g. the ones I play) but even then they only really work when you combine them with the rest of the NT system. For example, we like to show major-minor canapés rather than be murky about responder's suit lengths. That means we include a gadget to do that. Also, you can decide whether to include "garbage" stayman in the 2C response, this affects what you do with your 5-card invites. We like to play in 2M when responder has a 5-card invite, but that has meant we give up on responding 2C with very weak hands. If you are prepared to do that, all your 4- or 5-card invites start with 2C and that makes the transfers either weak, game forcing, or 6 cards
Anyway, in order to be helpful, here's an adjusted version of what you just wrote that is more consistent between the majors and hence a bit more memorable.
1NT - 2C - 2red - 2S = invitational with 5 spades. (with 5 spades and 4 hearts you would raise hearts if partner bid 2H over stayman)
1NT-2C-2D-2H = weak with both majors
1NT-2D-2H-
...2S = invitational with 5 hearts, might have 4 spades (you can also put some slam tries in here if you want). Opener distinguishes between major suit lengths if accepting
...2NT/3C = 4+ cards in the next suit up, FG
...3D = 6 hearts, FG (either slam try or COG)
...3H = nat inv
...3S/4m = auto splinter
1NT-2H-2S-
...2NT/3C/3D = 4+ cards in the next suit up, FG
...3H = 6 spades, FG
...3S = nat INV
others obvious
1NT-2C-2D-
...3D = 5/5 majors FG
...3H = 5/5 majors INV
...3S = 4 spades, 5 hearts FG (Smolen)
This means you might play in 2NT with a 4-4 spade fit, but everything else works. However, if previously you were using 1NT-2C-2D-3D to show a 4-card major and a 5-card minor, FG, you need to fit that in somewhere else. Nothing comes free, and hence the comment that you can never show only part of a complex 1NT system, it all has to fit together.
I could offer you one set of continuations (e.g. the ones I play) but even then they only really work when you combine them with the rest of the NT system. For example, we like to show major-minor canapés rather than be murky about responder's suit lengths. That means we include a gadget to do that. Also, you can decide whether to include "garbage" stayman in the 2C response, this affects what you do with your 5-card invites. We like to play in 2M when responder has a 5-card invite, but that has meant we give up on responding 2C with very weak hands. If you are prepared to do that, all your 4- or 5-card invites start with 2C and that makes the transfers either weak, game forcing, or 6 cards
Anyway, in order to be helpful, here's an adjusted version of what you just wrote that is more consistent between the majors and hence a bit more memorable.
1NT - 2C - 2red - 2S = invitational with 5 spades. (with 5 spades and 4 hearts you would raise hearts if partner bid 2H over stayman)
1NT-2C-2D-2H = weak with both majors
1NT-2D-2H-
...2S = invitational with 5 hearts, might have 4 spades (you can also put some slam tries in here if you want). Opener distinguishes between major suit lengths if accepting
...2NT/3C = 4+ cards in the next suit up, FG
...3D = 6 hearts, FG (either slam try or COG)
...3H = nat inv
...3S/4m = auto splinter
1NT-2H-2S-
...2NT/3C/3D = 4+ cards in the next suit up, FG
...3H = 6 spades, FG
...3S = nat INV
others obvious
1NT-2C-2D-
...3D = 5/5 majors FG
...3H = 5/5 majors INV
...3S = 4 spades, 5 hearts FG (Smolen)
This means you might play in 2NT with a 4-4 spade fit, but everything else works. However, if previously you were using 1NT-2C-2D-3D to show a 4-card major and a 5-card minor, FG, you need to fit that in somewhere else. Nothing comes free, and hence the comment that you can never show only part of a complex 1NT system, it all has to fit together.
#3
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Posted 2014-November-30, 11:09
I agree with Frances that this clearly depends on the rest of the system. In case it helps, here's what Sam and I play:
1NT - 2♦ = 5+♥ (any) or 4♥-6+m with GF values
1NT - 2♦ - 2♥:
... 2♠ = 5+♥ exactly invitational
------ 2NT = min 2♥ (now pass/3m/3♥ all to play; 3m will be 5/5 hand and 3♥=6+♥)
------ 3♣ = max 2♥ (now pass/3♦/3♥ are NF with under-value shapely invites)
------ 3♦ = "good" minimum with 3+♥
------ 3♥ = "bad" minimum with 3+♥
------ 3♠ = 3433 max, choice of game
------ 3NT = (4333) max with 3!h, choice of game
------ 4♥ = max 3+♥ not 4333
... 2NT = 4+♣ GF
------ 3♣ = relay
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♦ = 5+♣ and 4-5♥, same as 3♦ below (but with clubs)
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♥+ = 5+♥, 4♣; same as rebids after 3♣-3♦ below
... 3♣ = 4♦ exactly, GF
------ 3♦ = relay
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♥ = high (spade) shortage; 1543
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♠ = low (club) shortage; 3541
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3NT = no shortage (2542) not slam interested
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4♣ = high (spade) shortage with 6+♥; typical 1642
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4♦ = low (club) shortage with 6+♥; typical 2641
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4♥(+) = slammish 2542
... 3♦ = 5+♦ and 4-5♥, GF
------ 3♥ = relay; usually exactly 3♥
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♠ = 5♥, sets trumps
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3NT = 4♥ only with 6+♦, NF
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4m = 4♥ and 6+♦, slammish
------ 3♠ = 4+♥, sets trumps
------ 3NT = suggestion to play, stuff in the blacks
------ 4m = agrees ♦, 2♥ and weak in at least one black suit
... 3♥ = 5+♥ and 5+♠, exactly INV
... 3♠ = 6+♥ slam try (asking cuebids)
... 3NT = choice of games
... 4m = 6+♥ splinter
... 4♥ = 6+♥ spade splinter (NF)
We play very similar stuff over 1NT-2♥ except that there are no invites (invite with 5+♠ starts with 2♣ so we can get out at the two level) and that 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♥ is GF with 5/5 majors (invite with both majors starts 2♦). Invitational or better hands with 5+/4 majors always start with 2♣.
1NT - 2♦ = 5+♥ (any) or 4♥-6+m with GF values
1NT - 2♦ - 2♥:
... 2♠ = 5+♥ exactly invitational
------ 2NT = min 2♥ (now pass/3m/3♥ all to play; 3m will be 5/5 hand and 3♥=6+♥)
------ 3♣ = max 2♥ (now pass/3♦/3♥ are NF with under-value shapely invites)
------ 3♦ = "good" minimum with 3+♥
------ 3♥ = "bad" minimum with 3+♥
------ 3♠ = 3433 max, choice of game
------ 3NT = (4333) max with 3!h, choice of game
------ 4♥ = max 3+♥ not 4333
... 2NT = 4+♣ GF
------ 3♣ = relay
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♦ = 5+♣ and 4-5♥, same as 3♦ below (but with clubs)
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♥+ = 5+♥, 4♣; same as rebids after 3♣-3♦ below
... 3♣ = 4♦ exactly, GF
------ 3♦ = relay
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♥ = high (spade) shortage; 1543
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♠ = low (club) shortage; 3541
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3NT = no shortage (2542) not slam interested
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4♣ = high (spade) shortage with 6+♥; typical 1642
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4♦ = low (club) shortage with 6+♥; typical 2641
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4♥(+) = slammish 2542
... 3♦ = 5+♦ and 4-5♥, GF
------ 3♥ = relay; usually exactly 3♥
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3♠ = 5♥, sets trumps
::::::::::::::::::::::: 3NT = 4♥ only with 6+♦, NF
::::::::::::::::::::::: 4m = 4♥ and 6+♦, slammish
------ 3♠ = 4+♥, sets trumps
------ 3NT = suggestion to play, stuff in the blacks
------ 4m = agrees ♦, 2♥ and weak in at least one black suit
... 3♥ = 5+♥ and 5+♠, exactly INV
... 3♠ = 6+♥ slam try (asking cuebids)
... 3NT = choice of games
... 4m = 6+♥ splinter
... 4♥ = 6+♥ spade splinter (NF)
We play very similar stuff over 1NT-2♥ except that there are no invites (invite with 5+♠ starts with 2♣ so we can get out at the two level) and that 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♥ is GF with 5/5 majors (invite with both majors starts 2♦). Invitational or better hands with 5+/4 majors always start with 2♣.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#4
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Posted 2014-November-30, 23:08
FrancesHinden, on 2014-November-30, 09:45, said:
The reason you are confused, I would guess, is because the other thread has lots of people posting their own favourite bits of kit. There is no reason to expect that amalgamating lots of different systems will result in one coherent whole.
Yes, I was mostly focused on Mgoetze's description of 'Expert Standard' here:
Quote
Spoiler
And Jlall's subsequent discussion of Meckwell's style, which I thought was very interesting. I'm red hot to remove the invitational spade hands into stayman, and I'm attracted to removing the invites in hearts. Garbage stayman is not a frequent bid so confining it only to 3 suited options is fine.
Quote
I could offer you one set of continuations (e.g. the ones I play) but even then they only really work when you combine them with the rest of the NT system. For example, we like to show major-minor canapés rather than be murky about responder's suit lengths. That means we include a gadget to do that. Also, you can decide whether to include "garbage" stayman in the 2C response, this affects what you do with your 5-card invites. We like to play in 2M when responder has a 5-card invite, but that has meant we give up on responding 2C with very weak hands. If you are prepared to do that, all your 4- or 5-card invites start with 2C and that makes the transfers either weak, game forcing, or 6 cards
This is much appreciated. I like the approach of the 5 card invite stopping in 2S (and stopping in 2H has appeal as well) - and I suspect partner will too (we like playing methods generally that let us stop at the 2 level in an 8 card fit wherever possible). I guess you can still play garbage stayman, just it has to be 3 suited not both majors two suited, which is fine.
Quote
Anyway, in order to be helpful, here's an adjusted version of what you just wrote that is more consistent between the majors and hence a bit more memorable.
This means you might play in 2NT with a 4-4 spade fit, but everything else works. However, if previously you were using 1NT-2C-2D-3D to show a 4-card major and a 5-card minor, FG, you need to fit that in somewhere else. Nothing comes free, and hence the comment that you can never show only part of a complex 1NT system, it all has to fit together.
Spoiler
This means you might play in 2NT with a 4-4 spade fit, but everything else works. However, if previously you were using 1NT-2C-2D-3D to show a 4-card major and a 5-card minor, FG, you need to fit that in somewhere else. Nothing comes free, and hence the comment that you can never show only part of a complex 1NT system, it all has to fit together.
Yeah, that is tricky. I was hoping to keep stayman relatively 'standard' which means the rebids after a transfer may just have to become more complex. If I elect to not play garbage stayman, so 1N-2C-2D-2H is an invite with 5 that has a lot to recommend itself - what's your gadget for the canape major/minor hands? I looked at transfers after stayman but that doesn't work.
Quote
I agree with Frances that this clearly depends on the rest of the system. In case it helps, here's what Sam and I play:
Cheers - how does including the 4H 6+m hands in the transfer handle when partner makes super accepts?
#5
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Posted 2014-December-01, 00:44
Super-accepts are fine as long as they guarantee 4+ card support (which they do, for us).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#6
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Posted 2014-December-02, 16:05
Cthulhu D, on 2014-November-30, 07:58, said:
2N: 4+ clubs
3C: 4+ diamonds
3D: 4+ Hearts??
3H: 5/5 GF???
3S: Invitational with 6+ spades
3N: Choice of games
3C: 4+ diamonds
3D: 4+ Hearts??
3H: 5/5 GF???
3S: Invitational with 6+ spades
3N: Choice of games
I put all 5-4 major hands through Stayman, all the other bids move up one:
3♦ 5-5 GF
3♥ 6 spade invite
3♠ COG
3NT COG
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
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#7
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Posted 2014-December-02, 21:51
mgoetze, on 2014-December-02, 16:05, said:
I put all 5-4 major hands through Stayman, all the other bids move up one:
3♦ 5-5 GF
3♥ 6 spade invite
3♠ COG
3NT COG
3♦ 5-5 GF
3♥ 6 spade invite
3♠ COG
3NT COG
Yeah, realising that was a major headdesk moment. I see how it works now - except I don't get what are you doing with 4 spades 5 hearts and an invite? Or does that go through stayman as well?
I'm guessing after 1N-2H!-2S:
2N: 4+ clubs
3C: 4+ diamonds
3D: 5/5 GF
3H: Invitational or slam try with 6.
3S: CoG Gadget
3N: CoG Gadget
Then Stayman goes:
1N-2C-2D:
2H: Invite with 5
2S: Invite with 5
2N: Invite balanced with a 4 cM
3H: 5 S, 4H GF
3S: 5H 4S GF
#8
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Posted 2014-December-03, 08:19
I don't have a special bid for 5-4 majors INV, I'll just bid Stayman and miss a 5-3 fit once a year. I actually play 1NT-2♣; 2♦-2♥ as weak both majors, with all 5-card heart invites going via 1NT-2♦; 2♥-2♠.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
-- Bertrand Russell
-- Bertrand Russell
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Posted 2014-December-08, 18:33
FrancesHinden, on 2014-November-30, 09:45, said:
Also, you can decide whether to include "garbage" stayman in the 2C response, this affects what you do with your 5-card invites. We like to play in 2M when responder has a 5-card invite, but that has meant we give up on responding 2C with very weak hands. If you are prepared to do that, all your 4- or 5-card invites start with 2C and that makes the transfers either weak, game forcing, or 6 cards
OK I finally nailed partner down (plane trip together lol) so we could work through some of the outstanding discussion items.
Partner's expressed preferences - we're not going with 2N as puppet stayman, and we probably prefer putting the hearts invites though 1N-2D because we're not confident in our ability to land on our feet after 1N-2C-2S with 5 hearts (or, atleast, 3H as a spade raise is more valuable).
I like your suggestion of putting the 5/5 hands through stayman, but I think we need them for the minor Canape hands (I ran AWM's approach of 4M6m hands going through the transfer but partner is not a fan).
So that leaves us with:
1N: 2C: Promissary Stayman for all invites with 5 spades, 5/4 majors and 4M5m hands 2D: Hearts, after acceptance 2S is invitational with or without 4S, 2N/3C transfers 2H: Spades, after acceptance 2N/3C transfers 2S: Range Ask or Clubs 2N: Diamonds 3C: Puppet Stayman 3D: 5/5 Minors 3H: 3=1=(45) 3S: 1=3=(54) 3N: To play 4C: GERBER (can probably be set on fire) 4D: Hearts 4H: Spades 4S: Quantative invite, min 4N: Quant, Max.
Full details:
Spoiler
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