Help
You are the player sitting in 4th seat, and witness an auction such as this one -
1♣-(P)-1♥-?
You have a biddable hand containing the two unbid suits and some values.
So here's the question(s):
1. When do you make a t/o X for the two unbid suits?
2. When do you make a Sandwich NT overcall for the two unbid suits?
4th Seat T/O Double versus Sandwich NT What exactly is the difference?
#1
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Posted 2013-May-07, 06:45
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#2
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Posted 2013-May-07, 06:51
Personally, as a passed hand (don't play Sandwich NT otherwise), X shows more defense than 1NT shows less shape than 2NT. Warning: might not be optimal.
#3
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Posted 2013-May-07, 09:07
My habit is to use 1NT with 4 spades and 5 or more diamonds, possibly fairly weak, 2NT with a weak 5-5, and double with 4-4s of appropriate strength (and, as I mentioned in another thread, allow our side to play in clubs after the double.)
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Posted 2013-May-07, 10:09
Siegmund, on 2013-May-07, 09:07, said:
My habit is to use 1NT with 4 spades and 5 or more diamonds, possibly fairly weak,
How does that work out in practice ---bypassing the spade suit yet showing exactly four of them when weak?
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#5
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Posted 2013-May-07, 15:38
Antrax, on 2013-May-07, 06:51, said:
Personally, as a passed hand (don't play Sandwich NT otherwise), X shows more defense than 1NT shows less shape than 2NT. Warning: might not be optimal.
Huh?Maybe someone can decipher what was actually said here?
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#6
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Posted 2013-May-07, 15:45
Siegmund, on 2013-May-07, 09:07, said:
My habit is to use 1NT with 4 spades and 5 or more diamonds, possibly fairly weak, 2NT with a weak 5-5, and double with 4-4s of appropriate strength (and, as I mentioned in another thread, allow our side to play in clubs after the double.)
This can work. To summarise how I understand this:
1. Double = 4/4 in the two unbid suits
2. 1NT = 4-cards in the other major and 5-cards in the other minor
3. 2NT = 5/5 in the two unbid suits
With 5-cards in the other major and 4 in the other minor you just make a normal overcall. The actual length in the unbid minor is supressed, but that's ok. You've managed to get a bid in consuming some of the opponents bidding space.
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Posted 2013-May-07, 18:39
32519, on 2013-May-07, 15:38, said:
Huh?Maybe someone can decipher what was actually said here?
Antrax is describing his passed-hand methods, because his (our) unpassed-hand methods call for a strong-balanced sandwich position notrump. In that context, what he said was clear. Double is less distributional than cue or 2nt.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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Posted 2013-May-07, 19:01
32519, on 2013-May-07, 06:45, said:
2. When do you make a Sandwich NT overcall for the two unbid suits?
Never (as an unpassed hand). I think that this is a significantly majority viewpoint.
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#9
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Posted 2013-May-07, 19:02
I like double as a sound takeout of responder's suit, with 1nt being a lighter takeout for the unbids.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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Posted 2013-May-07, 21:41
32519, on 2013-May-07, 15:38, said:
Huh?Maybe someone can decipher what was actually said here?
0. We only play Sandwich NT by a passed hand. If that's the case then:
1. Double is a hand with more defense than 1NT.
2. 1NT shows less shape than 2NT, which is still unusual in that position.
In essence, double tells your partner: "you can compete but feel free to leave this with a trump stack, or double them later in the auction". 1NT tells your partner: "let's get our 8 card fit in the 2-level and then shut up". 2NT tells your partner: "if you have a fit, let's go nuts". It's gross oversimplification, but that's the spirit of things.
#11
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Posted 2013-May-08, 00:00
aguahombre, on 2013-May-07, 18:39, said:
Antrax is describing his passed-hand methods, because his (our) unpassed-hand methods call for a strong-balanced sandwich position notrump. In that context, what he said was clear. Double is less distributional than cue or 2nt.
What do you mean by a strong-balanced sandwich position? How strong is "strong?" And if you are strong why did you pass initially? Where and how does the Michaels/Unusual 2NT combination fit into your bidding agreements if you bid this way?
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#12
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Posted 2013-May-08, 00:06
Vampyr, on 2013-May-07, 19:01, said:
Never (as an unpassed hand). I think that this is a significantly majority viewpoint.
So then I must assume that the significant majority viewpoint will always make a t/o X for the two unbid suits. Does that mean we can discard the sandwich NT bid to the junk pile along with my other pet hates?
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#13
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Posted 2013-May-08, 00:07
Antrax, on 2013-May-07, 21:41, said:
Sorry, I thought it was clear.
0. We only play Sandwich NT by a passed hand. If that's the case then:
1. Double is a hand with more defense than 1NT.
2. 1NT shows less shape than 2NT, which is still unusual in that position.
In essence, double tells your partner: "you can compete but feel free to leave this with a trump stack, or double them later in the auction". 1NT tells your partner: "let's get our 8 card fit in the 2-level and then shut up". 2NT tells your partner: "if you have a fit, let's go nuts". It's gross oversimplification, but that's the spirit of things.
0. We only play Sandwich NT by a passed hand. If that's the case then:
1. Double is a hand with more defense than 1NT.
2. 1NT shows less shape than 2NT, which is still unusual in that position.
In essence, double tells your partner: "you can compete but feel free to leave this with a trump stack, or double them later in the auction". 1NT tells your partner: "let's get our 8 card fit in the 2-level and then shut up". 2NT tells your partner: "if you have a fit, let's go nuts". It's gross oversimplification, but that's the spirit of things.
See my reply to aguahombre.
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Posted 2013-May-08, 01:03
(1x)-p-(1y)-
1NT is our NT overcall, so 15(+)-18, expected to stop both suits (but if x is a minor, might just have length).
2y is natural, so 5+ decent suit.
2x is an ill-defined "general force". Probably should be something else. Undiscussed by a passed hand.
1NT is our NT overcall, so 15(+)-18, expected to stop both suits (but if x is a minor, might just have length).
2y is natural, so 5+ decent suit.
2x is an ill-defined "general force". Probably should be something else. Undiscussed by a passed hand.
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Posted 2013-May-08, 03:47
32519, on 2013-May-08, 00:00, said:
What do you mean by a strong-balanced sandwich position? How strong is "strong?" And if you are strong why did you pass initially? Where and how does the Michaels/Unusual 2NT combination fit into your bidding agreements if you bid this way?
Unpassed hands have not passed originally. I think I shall bow out.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#20
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Posted 2013-May-08, 09:13
Quote
How does that work out in practice ---bypassing the spade suit yet showing exactly four of them when weak?
Better than overcalling 2 of a minor and losing the major forever does. Not necessarily better than doubling - but the auction is never (or almost never, depending on opponents' methods) ending in 1 of our major anyway, so the inability to stop in 1S isn't really a worry.