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You have options to keep your sanity.
You can chill and let us beat our heads against the wall, or you can convince Vamp that we don't have to predict the future for her.
Did I get hosed by the director?
#81
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Posted 2013-February-07, 22:10
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#82
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Posted 2013-February-08, 14:53
aguahombre, on 2013-February-07, 19:41, said:
Simplest of examples: 4NT asks about my key cards for spades. 1/4 or 0/3 is an answer if the next player wants to know what 5C meant, but 1430 is not an answer to "what is 4nt?"
Yet this answer will be available on a convention card. Unless the opponents have not filled theirs out thoroughly or do not have one. I don't know why you want the latter players to have an advantage.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
#83
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Posted 2013-February-08, 15:46
mgoetze, on 2013-February-07, 18:07, said:
What should we say then? Describe what the 2♣ bid shows. Avoid using the word "asks" or "asking". 
(a) A weak hand with short clubs e.g. 4351 OR
(b) a weak hand with 5-4 in the majors OR
(c ) an invitational hand with at least one 4-card major OR
(e) a game-forcing hand with at least one 4-card major OR
(f) a weak hand with a 4-card major and a 5+ card minor.
#84
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Posted 2013-February-08, 21:49
Vampyr, on 2013-February-08, 14:53, said:
Yet this answer will be available on a convention card. Unless the opponents have not filled theirs out thoroughly or do not have one. I don't know why you want the latter players to have an advantage.
There is no advantage to us in knowing what the responses will be before they occur. There is only a reassurance or reminder to the 4NT bidder about their agreement.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#85
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Posted 2013-February-08, 22:22
aguahombre, on 2013-February-08, 21:49, said:
There is no advantage to us in knowing what the responses will be before they occur.
This is not always true.
Quote
There is only a reassurance or reminder to the 4NT bidder about their agreement.
They are not permitted or able to look at their own card.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
#86
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Posted 2013-February-09, 03:39
Vampyr, on 2013-February-07, 19:34, said:
Also I do not understand the idea that I am not, during the auction period, entitled to information that would have been freely and fully available before the auction had begun.
Well you are not entitled to consult your own CC once the auction period has begun but you may do so before that, so this idea is hardly new.
Anyway, the law is quite clear that you are not permitted to ask about the response structure itself but you are entitled to ask what your opponent can deduce about partner's hand from his knowledge of the response structure. Whether or not this is a good law is probably better debated in Changing Laws.
#87
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Posted 2013-February-09, 04:25
campboy, on 2013-February-09, 03:39, said:
Anyway, the law is quite clear that you are not permitted to ask about the response structure itself
It is not clear to me.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
#88
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Posted 2013-February-09, 14:13
Quote
Law 20F1, first sentence: During the auction and before the final pass, any player may request, but only at his own turn to call, an explanation of the opponents’ prior auction.
The emphasis on "prior" is mine. If we were entitled to ask questions about possible future calls, that word would not be there.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#89
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Posted 2013-February-09, 20:17
blackshoe, on 2013-February-09, 14:13, said:
The emphasis on "prior" is mine. If we were entitled to ask questions about possible future calls, that word would not be there.
In the case of an asking bid, the answers are an essential part of the convention.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
#90
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Posted 2013-February-09, 20:34
Vampyr, on 2013-February-09, 20:17, said:
In the case of an asking bid, the answers are an essential part of the convention.
So, when the answer has been given, you get to know what it was.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#91
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Posted 2013-February-09, 20:46
Vampyr, on 2013-February-09, 20:17, said:
In the case of an asking bid, the answers are an essential part of the convention.
So what?
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#92
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Posted 2013-February-09, 21:48
Vampyr, on 2013-February-09, 20:17, said:
In the case of an asking bid, the answers are an essential part of the convention.
blackshoe, on 2013-February-09, 20:46, said:
So what?
O.K. Vamp maybe this question will, despite your desire to know in advance something which you are not entitled by the laws to know in advance, bring your thinking back to the practical:
1D-1S
1N-2C! Alerted as artificial, and asking for further description of my opening bid. We have seven responses ---each alertable in and of themselves, because they carry more than one meaning (11-12 vs 13-14 & pattern). There is an idle bid (3C) in the middle which we don't need because of our original choice to open 1D.
Which of the following three things would you prefer:
1) Detail all 7 possible responses and their meanings and mention that I won't bid 3C?
2) Just tell you which bid I am going to make and explain it?
3) I make my response, partner alerts it, and your side either asks or doesn't ask what it means?
Also ask yourself what possible need you might have to know what any of these responses might mean before they occur.
Edit: In case there was any doubt, you are getting #3.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#93
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Posted 2013-February-09, 22:06
aguahombre, on 2013-February-09, 21:48, said:
Also ask yourself what possible need you might have to know what any of these responses might mean before they occur.
OK, let's say the opponents have made an Ace- or Keycard-asking bid. You might like to know, especially if you are yourself holding a keycard, what scheme of responses they are using and what form of DOPI/ROPI etc they are using (or not). You may want this information in order to determine whether you can add uncertainty to the opponents' auction by inserting a bid or a double.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
#94
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Posted 2013-February-09, 22:31
Vampyr, on 2013-February-09, 22:06, said:
OK, let's say the opponents have made an Ace- or Keycard-asking bid. You might like to know, especially if you are yourself holding a keycard, what scheme of responses they are using and what form of DOPI/ROPI etc they are using (or not). You may want this information in order to determine whether you can add uncertainty to the opponents' auction by inserting a bid or a double.
I think that's stepping into dangerous UI territory.
Either you double or you don't. No questions.
#95
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Posted 2013-February-09, 22:36
paua, on 2013-February-09, 22:31, said:
I think that's stepping into dangerous UI territory.
Either you double or you don't. No questions.
Either you double or you don't. No questions.
The opponents' UI is not your problem, but for the sake of argument assume that there are screens.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
#96
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Posted 2013-February-09, 22:50
If you can find a reason to want them to predict the future, then you will have to settle for 20f1 which doesn't allow you to have it.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#97
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Posted 2013-February-09, 22:55
aguahombre, on 2013-February-09, 22:50, said:
If you can find a reason to want them to predict the future, then you will have to settle for 20f1 which doesn't allow you to have it.
Even if it said that, I think that this would have been an unintended meaning as it is not consistent with full and free disclosure.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
#98
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Posted 2013-February-09, 23:27
Vampyr, on 2013-February-09, 22:55, said:
Even if it said that, I think that this would have been an unintended meaning as it is not consistent with full and free disclosure.
Actually, it is, unless you define "full and free disclosure" to be of not just bids that have been made, but also bids that might be made in the future. The law does not do that.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#99
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Posted 2013-February-10, 03:47
Are you not entitled to know all the opponent's system before the hand starts? If so, you are saying you lose those rights during the auction. If not, bridge is a very different game from what I thought it was.
#100
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Posted 2013-February-10, 04:27
Vampyr, on 2013-February-09, 22:36, said:
The opponents' UI is not your problem, but for the sake of argument assume that there are screens.
I meant UI for your side. You can't ask a question and then pass or double or bid based on the answer to the question. Well, you can, but at the risk of creating UI for partner.
Most bridge is not played with screens.