BBO Discussion Forums: Clubs or Not Clubs - BBO Discussion Forums

(3NT*) - Dbl - (4C*) - 5C

The opponents play Namyats, and 3NT showed a 4m preempt. 4C was pass/correct. What should 5C be? If partner bids it undiscussed, what would you expect it to be.

With clubs you have to double and bid 5C aftewards.

Most of this hinges on why 5C bidder did not wait for
opponents to correct to diamonds if he has clubs.
Second why no double of 4C to show clubs?
And no 4D if they have diamonds?
I take this as Michaels-like for MM.

...yes, and in addition to Michaels is an old fashioned 3-suit takeout with a void in ♣...I lean toward Michaels.

I don't understand the third choice. It either shows clubs or it doesn't. What it does show, as far as quantity or controls in clubs or diamonds is another matter. I voted it doesn't. It seems Dake's logic works. Depending on overall strength, we can either double and then bid 5C (stronger) or wait and bid 5C, if we have clubs.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2012-August-25, 19:49

A pair playing in the English Premier League bid (3N gambling)-P-(4C)-5C; AP. I thought they were somewhat unlucky to find trumps breaking 8-0.

How is this not clubs?

The whole "we must do X with clubs so it's not clubs thing" is kind of retarded since I could say "We must pass with Y and 5C shows clubs"

Depends a bit on what double of 4♣ would be.

I think it really should be "takeout of clubs" in which case 5♣ should be natural. However, if your agreement is that double is penalty of clubs, then you'd bid that with a "club" hand and 5♣ is artificial.

Double being penalty of clubs seems bizarre? What do you do with takeout of clubs? Conversely, with penalty of clubs, LHO will have diamonds so you could pass or bid 5C

I usually treat pass/correct bids as natural on the basis that you expect to get another chance if their partner has the other suit. So x = t/o of ♣, 4X = natural, pass then x = t/o of ♦, pass then 5♣ = ♣, and 5♣ over 4♣ is majors I suppose, whatever a 5♣ bid over a natural 4♣ opening would show. Yes, they could foil us by passing 4♣ when holding diamonds. My opponents rarely do this though (most common situation where this comes up for me is something like 1NT (2♦, ♦+major) P (2♥ p/c)).

Han, you frequently encounter Multi I imagine? What is (2♦) x (2♥) 3♥?

There is useful rule that double is always t/o to pass or correct bid (two way doubles are an alternative to that).
Here 4C could (and often will be) passed so we need t/o double as we can't wait with that.

Once we know dbl is t/o to clubs it's easy to infer what 5C is.

Similar but lower sequence:

1NT - pass - pass - 2C*
pass- 2D** - dbl

*-capp
**-pass or correct

Double should be t/o here because we are stuck with very likely 4-4-2-3 kind of hand and we can't afford passing as 2D might become a final contract.

The danger of any method that starts with a pass at red is that opener passes while holding the other suit and you collect a lot of 50s but not enough. Seen this (and done it as few times) in 1Nx wriggle and multi auctions particularly if I get any body language tell that the hand over the P/C bid had a good hand.

That said, applying our normal meta rules for P/C bids which may not be sensible at this level X is T/O of clubs, pass then X 4♦ is T/O of diamonds, 5♣/4♦ are natural, pass then 5♣ is clubs and a major leaping michaels style.

han, on 2012-August-25, 18:22, said:

Undiscussed is the key word of this topic imo. You guys can debate and all about what 5♣ should be, and i am sure Kenrexford will love that part of the topic. Meanwhile, undiscussed i don't think anyone has the right to torture pd at the table and should not bid it except than with natural clubs. Again i am not saying it is good to play it natural or vice versa, all i am saying is i would not use such a debatable artificial bid undiscussed and stress my pd.

About this auction after 4♣ : Imo 4♣ should be doubled most of the time to show uncertain hands with cards. DBL stops all the fooling and mystery immediately, 3NT opener will now have to tell us his story. I mean their convention gave us an advantage, now we were available to double their preempt by both partner ! Which would not be the case had they opened 4m. if 3NT opener passes our dbl pd knows opener has clubs and i have cards and not willing to bid a suit by myself, if opener corrects to 4♦ my dbl still doesnt show clubs but cards and again we gained a lot of space and advantage compared to had they opened a simple 4m preempt.

This is like being able to respond a take out dbl with dbl!!

4m-dbl-pass-dbl

3NT-DBL-4m-DBL

3NT-DBL-4♣-DBL
4♦-DBL We now had the advantage of doubling their preempt 3 times !!! Hell i like this

Same thing if we just stop being obsessed with dbl showing the clubs, which is not a good use imo but i am ready to believe otherwise if someone explains me

The way i see it, i can double with values and 3325 4324 3424 4423 4432 3415 3451 etc etc, it sounds dangerous i know but if we just think 3NT opener will clear everything, i think it is fairly safe and it gives us a lot of advantage to dbl 4♣ with majority of the hands which are not exceptional in shape, which makes bids by us shows exceptional shape. We are way ahead of pairs who had to bid the same hand vs a simple old school 4m preempt. For example after dbl by pd, i would have to commit to something at 4 level, now i am able to tell him "hey i have money too but i didn't decide where to spend it yet" The price i pay for this will be disabling myself to DBL when i have long and/or good clubs.

Lot to be said about 5♣ being a cue...This 5♣ being a cue just doesn't sound right to me. Pd doubled he has money, i am looking at my hand and i have money too, opponents already pushed us to make a decision at 4 level and by bidding 5♣ i am also wasting a whole 4 level doesnt sound like a smart thing to do to me. We have the money, we need the space and every bit of it left to us should be used, we can't just give up whole 4 level just to spare DBl for showing clubs. Just saying.

EDIT: 4♦ being used as a cue in this auction regardless of their minor can be interesting idea. At least it doesnt bring us to 5 level.

I do not follow the logic that it should be something other than C.

We played in the 3-0 fit yesterday but fortunately clubs broke 7-3.

Double being penalty of clubs seems bizarre? What do you do with takeout of clubs? Conversely, with penalty of clubs, LHO will have diamonds so you could pass or bid 5C

*** Then what are next round meanings?

This seems like a parallel of the multi auction:

(2♦) - dbl - (2♥) - 3♥

Option II says this is Rubensohl

I think Han's auction is natural, and stronger than a delayed 5♣.

This depends on the meaning of double, if double sounds take out to you then this is natural. But if you have some agreement that after a penalty double all doubles are penalty or something like that then you are stuck with suboptimal agreements and this is for take out.

MickyB, on 2012-August-25, 20:05, said:

han, on 2012-August-26, 05:52, said:

When I open multi this things never happen to me