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There are quite a few countries with 5-card major based systems regarded as standard for the relevant country e.g.
1. USA = SAYC
2. Germany = Forum D
3. France = French Standard
4. Poland = Polish Club
5. Italy = ?
6. Others?
7. Netherlands = Dutch ACOL?
Then you have variations of the standard system.
Add to that all the different gadgets that different partnerships add to the standard system, ending up with a system which is anything but the standard. So whats the point of having a standard system for a country?
2/1 is the 5-card majors system probably with the biggest following. So why not just adopt 2/1 as the standard system for the relevant country? Much easier!
I Dont Get It?
#1
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Posted 2012-April-14, 01:08
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#2
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Posted 2012-April-14, 03:22
Mainly historical reasons. If you start teaching all the new players 2/1, you would also have to teach them how to defend against certain aspects of the traditional system. Also, the teachers are probably more familiar with their national system than 2/1.
Wayne Somerville
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Posted 2012-April-14, 05:38
In the UK the 'standard system' is acol - obviously not a five card major system. My experience is that casual social players will learn this system when they are taught to play bridge and, while they might add a few gadgets in their partnerships, are generally able to play it with other casual social players. Frequently the differences between two such players' style or system will go largely un-noticed by them over the course of a duplicate (eg what to open with 4M4m basically never seems to get discussed) and if it costs them they don't particularly mind - they're not there to win, they're there to share a fun evening of bridge.
Obviously this is a bit different to your examples because the fact that acol is a 4cM system makes the jump to something like 2/1 quite big, so very few people will learn to play 2/1 in the UK who don't want to play at a fairly high level.
I'm not an expert on the matter but I believe the French standard system is kept very uniform between partnerships - not a lot of this adding of gadgets and bits.
Obviously this is a bit different to your examples because the fact that acol is a 4cM system makes the jump to something like 2/1 quite big, so very few people will learn to play 2/1 in the UK who don't want to play at a fairly high level.
I'm not an expert on the matter but I believe the French standard system is kept very uniform between partnerships - not a lot of this adding of gadgets and bits.
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Posted 2012-April-14, 08:22
sasioc, on 2012-April-14, 05:38, said:
(eg what to open with 4M4m basically never seems to get discussed)
I don't think this needs to be discussed, because the modern style is to open the major first, and this is very well known.
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Posted 2012-April-14, 08:24
32519, on 2012-April-14, 01:08, said:
2/1 is the 5-card majors system probably with the biggest following. So why not just adopt 2/1 as the standard system for the relevant country? Much easier!
Get together with Nigel Guthrie, and the two of you can devise a "world system" and ensure that all beginners, everywhere, are taught it.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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Posted 2012-April-14, 08:37
Vampyr, on 2012-April-14, 08:22, said:
I don't think this needs to be discussed, because the modern style is to open the major first, and this is very well known.
This may be true within the walls of the YC, or even within the M25, but it's certainly not true nationally. I believe that in Oxfordshire, Avon and much of Scotland, it is standard to open the minor, and I suspect they all regard this as the "modern style".
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Posted 2012-April-14, 09:01
MickyB, on 2012-April-14, 08:37, said:
This may be true within the walls of the YC, or even within the M25, but it's certainly not true nationally. I believe that in Oxfordshire, Avon and much of Scotland, it is standard to open the minor, and I suspect they all regard this as the "modern style".
OK, sorry. Bluejak has accused me often of being "London-centric", and I suspect that he is right.
Plus it has emerged in several threads that there is a large North/South divide in bidding styles. In fact the line seems to be drawn as far south as Middlesex.
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Posted 2012-April-14, 09:47
Vampyr, on 2012-April-14, 08:24, said:
Get together with Nigel Guthrie, and the two of you can devise a "world system" and ensure that all beginners, everywhere, are taught it.
2/1 may already be the most popular "world system." So there is no need to devise something completely new. I suggest the following as an alternative for individual countries having a "standard" system for the relevant country:
1. 2/1 Basic (read beginner). This will cover the system basics plus entry level conventions such as Stayman, Jacoby Transfer bids etc.
2. 2/1 Intermediate. Now you start introducing some additional conventions e.g. New Minor Forcing, Splinter bids etc.
3. 2/1 Advanced. Again you start adding some more conventions e.g. Lebensohl, Unusual over Unusual etc.
4. 2/1 Expert. At this level the partnership can add in anything they wish which doesn't appear in the lower levels e.g. Serious/Non-Serious 3NT, Last Train to Clarksville etc.
All that may be necessary is to agree on which conventions to introduce on levels 1, 2 and 3. Above that it doesn't matter anymore.
Any thoughts?
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Posted 2012-April-14, 10:07
I get almost hit by a car at least twice a day every time I spend any time in the British Isles so I sympathise with your feeling. Nevertheless, I think it is just normal to have regional differences in most areas of human culture etc.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
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Posted 2012-April-14, 11:28
Vampyr, on 2012-April-14, 08:22, said:
I don't think this needs to be discussed, because the modern style is to open the major first, and this is very well known.
Wow! I can disagree with you three times in one sentence!
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
London UK
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Posted 2012-April-14, 11:31
Vampyr, on 2012-April-14, 09:01, said:
OK, sorry. Bluejak has accused me often of being "London-centric", and I suspect that he is right.
Plus it has emerged in several threads that there is a large North/South divide in bidding styles. In fact the line seems to be drawn as far south as Middlesex.
Plus it has emerged in several threads that there is a large North/South divide in bidding styles. In fact the line seems to be drawn as far south as Middlesex.
Having now read the whole thread, I don't think it's to do with geography at all. I just think you are plain wrong
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
London UK
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Posted 2012-April-14, 11:32
32519, on 2012-April-14, 09:47, said:
Any thoughts?
Sure: why not just leave people to play what they want? They will anyway.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
London UK
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Posted 2012-April-14, 11:39
gordontd, on 2012-April-14, 11:32, said:
Sure: why not just leave people to play what they want? They will anyway.
This wasn't about people playing what they want. It was about individual countries adopting a "standard" system for the particular country.
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Posted 2012-April-14, 11:40
32519, on 2012-April-14, 11:39, said:
This wasn't about people playing what they want. It was about individual countries adopting a "standard" system for the particular country.
If they want to, they probably already have one. Now you want them to change it. Good luck with that.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
London UK
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Posted 2012-April-14, 12:25
Agree with Gordon on establishment of "standard systems".
Aside from that, why pick 2/1? According to Larry Cohen, Precision is a more sensible system, and easier to teach to beginners. So why not Precision (which is the "standard" in some places)? Yes, there are places where Precision is not "standard", but if Cohen is right maybe it should be.
Aside from that, why pick 2/1? According to Larry Cohen, Precision is a more sensible system, and easier to teach to beginners. So why not Precision (which is the "standard" in some places)? Yes, there are places where Precision is not "standard", but if Cohen is right maybe it should be.
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Posted 2012-April-14, 15:38
gordontd, on 2012-April-14, 11:31, said:
Having now read the whole thread, I don't think it's to do with geography at all. I just think you are plain wrong
It's possible. It has happened before.
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Posted 2012-April-18, 01:30
32519, on 2012-April-14, 09:47, said:
2/1 may already be the most popular "world system."
I would bet a coke this is not the case.
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Posted 2012-April-18, 02:55
Zelandakh, on 2012-April-18, 01:30, said:
I would bet a coke this is not the case.
Which system do you think would be more popular?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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Posted 2012-April-18, 03:01
gnasher, on 2012-April-18, 02:55, said:
Which system do you think would be more popular?
Perhaps 2/1 is just not "one system".
Anyway 2/1 is unheard-of amongst LOLs here and I'm sure also in many other parts of continental Europe. But this really boils down to the question of how much you need to specify before you have a "system".
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Posted 2012-April-18, 03:53
Zelandakh, on 2012-April-18, 01:30, said:
I would bet a coke this is not the case.
gnasher, on 2012-April-18, 02:55, said:
Which system do you think would be more popular?
Based on sheer numbers, Precision may be more popular. Isn't Precision the "standard" system in China?
I think Precision is also the "standard" system for places like Bulgaria. Others may know of more countries where Precision is the "standard" system?
What is the "standard" system in India? This may counter-balance the Precision players in China.
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