Forcing terms forcing, forcing for one round, promising a rebid, game forcing, etc
#1
Posted 2020-September-26, 12:27
1. Forcing - partner must not pass, but it does not promise a rebid
2. Forcing for one round - F1 for short. I used to think that this promised a rebid (as per 3) but have read recently (I think somewhere on these forums), that this is the same as 1. That seems really odd. To me a round is like a circle, and the round is complete when the auction returns to the forcer. One out of 1,2,3 (most likely 3) seems redundant to me.
3. A bid that promises a rebid. Self explanatory. This is what I used to think was meant by Forcing for One Round If it's not the same as 2, is there a short way of describing it?
4. Game forcing. GF for short. 3NT, 4H/S or 5C/D. Not the same as 5.
5. Forcing to 3NT. the auction can stop at 4C/4D. Not the same as 4.
Thanks
#2
Posted 2020-September-26, 13:26
Wainfleet, on 2020-September-26, 12:27, said:
1. Forcing - partner must not pass, but it does not promise a rebid
2. Forcing for one round - F1 for short. I used to think that this promised a rebid (as per 3) but have read recently (I think somewhere on these forums), that this is the same as 1. That seems really odd. To me a round is like a circle, and the round is complete when the auction returns to the forcer. One out of 1,2,3 (most likely 3) seems redundant to me.
3. A bid that promises a rebid. Self explanatory. This is what I used to think was meant by Forcing for One Round If it's not the same as 2, is there a short way of describing it?
More or less, and you are right, bridge terminology is often confusing (attacking the opponent's contract is called defending, cue-bid can mean almost anything, a Puppet is the guy pulling the strings, and so on).
My understanding of mainstream (US) terminology is that a bid that does not promise a rebid is called 'forcing for one round' and a bid that does is called 'forcing and promises a rebid'. Some Italian theoreticians call them F1 and F2 which is certainly shorter but not self-explanatory or unambiguous; others use F and F1 to mean the same things. Italian players usually call them 'forzante' (forcing) and 'autoforzante' (self-forcing) which is much better.
#3
Posted 2020-September-26, 15:19
So for example 1♠-P-2N(forcing to 3♠, not game forcing for us, limit or better)-3♣-P is forcing
#4
Posted 2020-September-26, 17:41
- F/1 or F = "Forcing" Partner must not pass unless his RHO doubles or bids.
- F/A or F/R = "Auto-forcing" Forcing and promises a rebid (below game).
- F/G = "Game-forcing" We must not stop short of game unless we double opponents for penalty.
- F/2NT = "Forcing to level" We must not pass below 2NT (or whatever).
- F/SA = "Forcing to suit agreement" Some have this agreement about a cue-reply to a T/O double. e.g. (1♥) X (P) 2♥.
- F/P = "Forcing-pass" Creates forcing-pass context. (We must not pass out opponents undoubled).
Edited to Include suggestions by Helene-T, Pesceton, Mycroft, and others.
#5
Posted 2020-September-26, 19:03
1. Forcing: If partner's RHO passes, partner must not pass (i.e. partner must assure we get one more turn). May or may not promise a rebid, i.e. it is forcing for at least one round.
The short term for promising a rebid is auto-forcing, but that is mostly used in France. It doesn't literally promise a rebid: if partner jumps to game (or doubles opps, or redoubles), you can pass.
F1 means forcing I think, not necessarily auto-forcing.
#6
Posted 2020-September-27, 02:30
helene_t, on 2020-September-26, 19:03, said:
1. Forcing: If partner's RHO passes, partner must not pass (i.e. partner must assure we get one more turn). May or may not promise a rebid, i.e. it is forcing for at least one round.
The short term for promising a rebid is auto-forcing, but that is mostly used in France. It doesn't literally promise a rebid: if partner jumps to game (or doubles opps, or redoubles), you can pass.
F1 means forcing I think, not necessarily auto-forcing.
I was too puzzled by the forcing Ğ 1 round ğ if it is jute forcing Ğ 1 bid ğ and therefore only half a round of the table...and that Ğ forcing ğ already existed.
I like the Ğ auto forcing ğ term. You actually promise another bid unless partner bids game.
For instance (reverses are auto forcing for me)
1D - 1S
2H - 3NT
pass
is an ok sequence
#7
Posted 2020-September-27, 03:32
However, between "Forcing up to such-and-such level" and forcing, you rarely need this agreement.
#10
Posted 2020-September-27, 04:50
#11
Posted 2020-September-27, 06:40
pescetom, on 2020-September-27, 04:44, said:
I'm surprised by this. To my mind "forcing for one round" is completely clear and accurate at it is.
London UK
#12
Posted 2020-September-27, 09:13
- Forcing 1 round: partner, you must give me another chance to bid.
- Pseudo-game: Game, but can pass 4m *if 3NT was looked for and rejected*. Therefore: Pseudo-game forcing is like the OP's F3NT, but where 4m is also forcing in non-obvious situations.
- Promises a rebid: what people are calling "auto-forcing"; I must bid again unless you make a final decision (game, usually), but I can override the "final" with sufficient strength. Most commonly to me, a 2/1 response in a Standard American, non 2/1GF context.
#13
Posted 2020-September-28, 17:30
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#14
Posted 2020-September-29, 09:45
Wainfleet, on 2020-September-26, 12:27, said:
2. Forcing for one round - F1 for short. I used to think that this promised a rebid (as per 3) but have read recently (I think somewhere on these forums), that this is the same as 1. That seems really odd. To me a round is like a circle, and the round is complete when the auction returns to the forcer. One out of 1,2,3 (most likely 3) seems redundant to me.
Yes, these are the same. You can use F1 if you like but F1R is more common from my experience. The "1 round" is a reference to partner; they have to keep the bidding open for one round but on the second round they are allowed to pass absent a further force being introduced. Notice that the "must not pass" only applies if RHO passes, not generally.
Wainfleet, on 2020-September-26, 12:27, said:
5. Forcing to 3NT. the auction can stop at 4C/4D. Not the same as 4.
In my bidding notes I use GF as a synonym for 5 and UGF for 4. There are several different terminologies used in this area so best to check exactly what is meant for any given source.
#15
Posted 2020-September-29, 14:23
gordontd, on 2020-September-27, 06:40, said:
Wainfleet, on 2020-September-26, 12:27, said:
I think both these interpretations of 'forcing for one round' have some merit and obviously they are in complete contradiction. Hence my suggestion for a new term.
#16
Posted 2020-September-29, 18:42
For example, if partner opens 1♦, then if I had to describe a 1♠ response, it would simply be a forcing bid. It would also be true to describe it as forcing one round, but there's simply no reason for me to do so.
On the other hand, after 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♥, I would describe 3♦ as game forcing, and 2♠ as 'forcing one round', even though forcing is also accurate. This is to convey the idea that 2♠ might be weak or strong, and we can stop short of game in the former case.
#17
Posted 2020-September-30, 00:12
smerriman, on 2020-September-29, 18:42, said:
On the other hand, after 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♥, I would describe 3♦ as game forcing, and 2♠ as 'forcing one round', even though forcing is also accurate. This is to convey the idea that 2♠ might be weak or strong, and we can stop short of game in the former case.
Technically, 2S is forcing because 2H was auto-forcing🤣🤣🤣
#18
Posted 2020-September-30, 03:55
apollo1201, on 2020-September-30, 00:12, said:
This is N/B so I feel obliged to point out that this is correct only because smerriman plays a system where 2♠ is forcing and 2NT is a weakness advance (also forcing), with all other calls being GF. It is not true in the general case, so if Responder has any non-forcing calls, and the vast majority of N/B players do have non-forcing calls here, then 2♥ is not auto-forcing.
#19
Posted 2020-September-30, 11:45
Zelandakh, on 2020-September-30, 03:55, said:
It was more to use the terms than to elaborate. But you are correct to point out that it is system-dependent. And as always, N/B or higher, youd better play the same thing as partner! For forcing or not, or forcing till where, it illustrates pretty well the need to be on the same wavelength as partner.
#20
Posted 2020-October-01, 14:43
Forcing to <level>: both players must keep the bidding open until <level> is reached. Once <level> is reached, subsequent bids are not forcing. If an opponent bids or doubles below <level>, pass is forcing. "level" means something like "3♠" or whatever.
Forcing to game: Any bid that is not game is forcing. This includes 4m.
Forcing to 3NT: This is a "forcing to <level>" situation (see above). Bids above 3NT are not forcing, so we can stop in 4m, that bid not being forcing.
Given the above, I honestly can't think of a situation that would require a "forcing one round" bid, particularly given that if I wanted to say that I would mean "you must ensure the bidding is kept open partner; I am going to bid again".
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean