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Multi with Strong D

#1 User is offline   Chillwell1 

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Posted 2018-July-24, 08:17

Hi!

I've seen some elite players play Multi as either weak in a major or GF with diamonds. The rebid showing diamonds (normally) after 2C - 2D; 3D has another meaning playing Multi with strong D and i think this has a lot of benefits.
I'm trying to figure out a structure for me and my partner for both the 2D Multi bid showing GF with diamonds and also the rebid after 2C - 2D; 3D.

The structure i have come up to;

2C - 2D;
3D = 5+D + 4S
3H = 5+D + 4H

I think having the hand 2524 or 2542 is pretty awkward so this makes it easier, i think.

2D - 2H;
2NT = Showing GF with D

(Maybe you can add some more GF hands in, like;
3C = Diamonds with clubs
3H = Diamonds with singleton heart
3S = Diamonds with singleton spade


I'm having trouble finding a reasonable continuation after these rebids.
Is my structure even good?
Do you experts have any input on these sequences?

Thanks!
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#2 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2018-July-24, 08:57

An idea I've been working on for some time:

Suppose

2 = <range 1> BAL OR <range 2> BAL OR unBAL GF not with primarily diamonds
2 = Weak 2M OR <range 3> BAL OR unBAL GF with primarily diamonds

and that 44(41), 4M5m22 and 5M4m22 are treated as balanced. Then it's possible to play

2-2; ?:

2 = "5+ H, unBAL" OR <range 1> BAL
...2 = relay
......2N = BAL
......3+ = 5+ H, unBAL, R(). See R(x) below.
...Anti-relays:
...2N = 2-H6+C (=> 3+ = unBAL)
...3 = 2-H6+D (=> 3+ = unBAL)
...3 = 6+S2-H (=> 3/3N+ = unBAL)
2 = "5+ S, unBAL"
...2N = relay
......3+ = R(). See R(x) below.
...Anti-relays:
...3 = 2-S6+C
...3 = 2-S6+D
...3 = 2-S6+H
2N = <range 2> BAL
3+ = "(4)5+ C, unBAL", R(). See R(x) below.

2-2M; ?:

P = weak, long M
2N = <range 3> BAL
3+:
As if
3+ = "GF, (4)5+ D, unBAL", R(). See R(x) below.
except that
3(M=) = Weak 2 OR as in R(). See R(x) below.

R(x):

(with

ab(x) = the "adjacent" suit "below" x (S,C,D,H if x is C,D,H,S, respectively)
na(x) = the suit not "adjacent" to x (H,S,C,D if x is C,D,H,S, respectively)
Or(x) = the other suit of the same rank as x,

and lo,mi,hi being the lowest-, middle-, highest-ranking suit outside x, respectively)

3 = 4+ lo, not 5-5 OR 1-suited
...3 = relay
......3 = 1-suited
......3+ = S(x,lo). See S(x,y) below.
...(...)
3 = 4+ mi, not 5-5
...3 = relay*
......3+ = S(x,mi). See S(x,y) below.
...(...)
3 = E(x). See below.
3+ = S(x,hi). See S(x,y) below.

S(x,y):

3 = 5x4y13(04) (e.g. Mulberry over this)
3N = 5x4y31(40) (e.g. Mulberry over this)
4+ = 6+x4+y**. Maybe something like
4 = 6x4y (e.g. Mulberry without 4 over this)
4 = 6x5y
4 = 7x4y
And if we don't want to stop there, why not
4 = 6x6y
4N = 7x5y
5 = 8x4y
5 = 7x6y
5 = 8x5y
5 = 9x4y

? :blink:

E(x):

Basic idea:

3 = 5x5ab(x) OR 5x5na(x)2+Or(x) OR (if x=m) 4m1na(m)44 OR (if x=M) 5M4OM22
...3 = relay
......3N = 4m1na(m)44 (if x=m) or 5M4OM22 (if x=M)
......4 = 5x5ab(x)
......4+ = 5x5na(x), 2+ Or(x).

In more detail:

E():

3 = 5S5C OR 5H2+D5C OR 1444
...3 = relay
......3N = 1444 (e.g. Mulberry over this)
......4 = 5S5C (e.g. Mulberry without 4 over this)
......4 = 5H2+D5C, even # of KC() (=> e.g. 4 = RKC(), 4N = Q ask, agreeing C)
......4 = 5H2+D5C, odd # of KC() (=> e.g. 4 = RKC(), 4N = Q ask, agreeing C)
...(...)

E()

3 = 5D5C OR 5S5D2+C or 4144
...3 = relay
......3N = 4144 (e.g. Mulberry over this)
......4 = 5D5C (e.g. Mulberry without 4 over this)
......4 = 5S5D2+C (=> e.g. 4/4N = RKC(/), respectively
...(...)

E()

3 = 5H5D OR 2+S5H5C OR 4522
...3 = relay
......3N = 4522 (e.g. Mulberry over this)
......4 = 5H5D (e.g. Mulberry without 4 over this)
......4 = 2+S5H5C, even # of KC() (=> e.g. 4 = RKC(), 4N = Q ask, agreeing C)
......4 = 2+S5H5C, odd # of KC() (=> e.g. 4 = RKC(), 4N = Q ask, agreeing C)
...(...)

E()

3 = 5S5H OR 5S2+H5D OR 5422
...3 = relay
......3N = 5422 (e.g. Mulberry over this)
......4 = 5S5H (e.g. Mulberry without 4 over this)
......4 = 5S5D2+H (=> e.g. 4/N = RKC(/), respectively)
...(...)

* Passable with a Weak 2 in the sequence 2-2; 3-3.
** If Opener has shown at least 10 cards in x and y at 4 or higher, but nothing yet about key cards, then the lowest/2nd lowest bid by Responder outside x and y could be used as "RKC" in the lowest/highest ranking suit of x and y, respectively.

[I'll fix mistakes when I see them.]

Edit: Random examples (work in progress):

Spoiler


Added, starting 3 May 2020:
Spoiler

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#3 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2018-July-24, 13:12

View PostChillwell1, on 2018-July-24, 08:17, said:

Hi!

I've seen some elite players play Multi as either weak in a major or GF with diamonds. The rebid showing diamonds (normally) after 2C - 2D; 3D has another meaning playing Multi with strong D and i think this has a lot of benefits.
I'm trying to figure out a structure for me and my partner for both the 2D Multi bid showing GF with diamonds and also the rebid after 2C - 2D; 3D.

The structure i have come up to;

2C - 2D;
3D = 5+D + 4S
3H = 5+D + 4H

I think having the hand 2524 or 2542 is pretty awkward so this makes it easier, i think.

2D - 2H;
2NT = Showing GF with D

(Maybe you can add some more GF hands in, like;
3C = Diamonds with clubs
3H = Diamonds with singleton heart
3S = Diamonds with singleton spade


I'm having trouble finding a reasonable continuation after these rebids.
Is my structure even good?
Do you experts have any input on these sequences?

Thanks!


It not uncommon to use 2C-2D-3M as 4M and 5+ Ds.

This allows 2C-2D-3D to deny 4M.
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#4 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2018-August-16, 00:03

I've seen the following:

2D-2H;
3C = Diamonds and another suit (3D asks)
3D = 6+ diamonds, no shortness.
3M = 6+ diamonds, short major.
3NT = 6+ diamonds, short clubs. Not forcing.
4C = 6+ diamonds, short clubs. Forcing.

You can play the same way after 2C-2D, but then bidding 3X shows clubs as the primary suit.
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#5 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2018-August-16, 00:56

Amusing location for this thread.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#6 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-August-16, 15:16

View Postgordontd, on 2018-August-16, 00:56, said:

Amusing location for this thread.


See also where the thread about doubling a natural 2 opening is located.

“Everything’s got a moral, if only you can find it.” (The Duchess)
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-August-16, 16:30

Haha, reminds me of a rant I once saw here:

just paraphrasing, don't remember the exact quote said:

Why are Polish players allowed to play their weird artificial 2 opening? Why can't they just play the perfectly natural Standard American system?

The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#8 User is offline   Chillwell1 

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Posted 2018-August-18, 13:00

View PostKungsgeten, on 2018-August-16, 00:03, said:

I've seen the following:

2D-2H;
3C = Diamonds and another suit (3D asks)
3D = 6+ diamonds, no shortness.
3M = 6+ diamonds, short major.
3NT = 6+ diamonds, short clubs. Not forcing.
4C = 6+ diamonds, short clubs. Forcing.

You can play the same way after 2C-2D, but then bidding 3X shows clubs as the primary suit.




What should the 2NT rebid be after 2D- 2H:? Just GF with D or anything else?
I really like that structure you had seen.

After 2C - 2D;
All rebids on 3 level is natural but with clubs as the primary suit; so 2C-2D; 3H shows 4H and 5C?
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#9 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2018-August-19, 05:54

View PostChillwell1, on 2018-August-18, 13:00, said:

What should the 2NT rebid be after 2D- 2H:? Just GF with D or anything else?


2NT = balanced hand (see nullve's post)

View Postnullve, on 2018-July-24, 08:57, said:

2 = Weak 2M OR <range 3> BAL OR unBAL GF with primarily diamonds

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#10 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2018-August-21, 02:23

View PostChillwell1, on 2018-August-18, 13:00, said:

What should the 2NT rebid be after 2D- 2H:? Just GF with D or anything else?
I really like that structure you had seen.

After 2C - 2D;
All rebids on 3 level is natural but with clubs as the primary suit; so 2C-2D; 3H shows 4H and 5C?


Well, if you have a strong balanced option in the multi, then that hand would bid 2NT. If you don't (just weak major or strong diamonds) then I guess you could play 2NT as 6 diamonds and suitable to bid no-trumps? You could even play it as non-forcing, let's say 20-22 with 6322 and suitable for no-trump play. That can be an awkward hand if opening 1D, and might help somewhat instead of treating it as a normal 2NT opening. Another nice option could be to play 2NT as GF with 5-5 minors, since that isn't covered by the rest of the structure.

Regarding 2C-2D, I'd suggest you play the same principle as 2D-2H, so:

3C = 5+ clubs and 4 cards in another suit, 3D asks.
3D = 6+ clubs, no shortness.
3M = 6+ clubs, short major.
3NT = 6+ clubs, short diamonds. Not forcing.
4C = 6+ clubs, short diamonds, too strong for 3NT.

Note that this doesn't work if you play 2C-2D; 3NT as 25-27 balanced.
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#11 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2018-August-22, 03:51

View Postgordontd, on 2018-August-16, 00:56, said:

Amusing location for this thread.

It's about making a 2D opening show diamonds - how much more natural do you want?
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#12 User is offline   Chillwell1 

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Posted 2018-August-23, 06:45

View PostKungsgeten, on 2018-August-21, 02:23, said:

Well, if you have a strong balanced option in the multi, then that hand would bid 2NT. If you don't (just weak major or strong diamonds) then I guess you could play 2NT as 6 diamonds and suitable to bid no-trumps? You could even play it as non-forcing, let's say 20-22 with 6322 and suitable for no-trump play. That can be an awkward hand if opening 1D, and might help somewhat instead of treating it as a normal 2NT opening. Another nice option could be to play 2NT as GF with 5-5 minors, since that isn't covered by the rest of the structure.

Regarding 2C-2D, I'd suggest you play the same principle as 2D-2H, so:

3C = 5+ clubs and 4 cards in another suit, 3D asks.
3D = 6+ clubs, no shortness.
3M = 6+ clubs, short major.
3NT = 6+ clubs, short diamonds. Not forcing.
4C = 6+ clubs, short diamonds, too strong for 3NT.

Note that this doesn't work if you play 2C-2D; 3NT as 25-27 balanced.




Thanks! This seems really good!!
For the 25-27 bal you could have the 2NT rebid after 2D-2H; show 25-27.
Or maybe use Kokish relay to show 25-27 in the 2C opening.
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