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How do you find 4-4 spade fit?? 2/1 ACBL

#1 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2018-July-12, 07:14




This was our bidding.

Bad result. Should be in Spades HOW BEST?

Thank you
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-July-12, 09:03

The answer to this partially depends on what a 1 overcall looks like in your world.

If it can be AQJxx and out, then S does not have enough for 2 and should respond 1.

We play a double of 3 would show exactly 4 spades but I'm not sure that's standard in any way.
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#3 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-July-12, 09:07

The north hand has no solid source of tricks of their own, club stoppers that will evaporate too quickly and a stiff in partners suit making 3nt a very poor choice. 4 may well be cold if partner has 2 of them let alone a spade fit but 3nt is highly odds against.

Given partners free 2 level bid this is an easy double of 3 imo. South with a stiff heart should pass and you will bury it on the crossruff.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-July-12, 10:18

View Postggwhiz, on 2018-July-12, 09:07, said:

The north hand has no solid source of tricks of their own, club stoppers that will evaporate too quickly and a stiff in partners suit making 3nt a very poor choice. 4 may well be cold if partner has 2 of them let alone a spade fit but 3nt is highly odds against.

Given partners free 2 level bid this is an easy double of 3 imo. South with a stiff heart should pass and you will bury it on the crossruff.


N may be expecting a bit more from S, but spade ace to <4 and KQ109xx is enough for this to be the right spot.
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#5 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2018-July-12, 11:18

This hand might be handled better with a Roman Jump overcall:

(1) 2 = 5+ & 4, an opening hand.
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: http://bridgewithdan...stems/Ultra.pdf
C3: Copious Canape is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded)

NOW playing a Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes-Millennium like) system with canapé, 11-14 NT with Keri Invites and Intermediate 2 bids (10-14), & 15+ 1 opener with transfer negatives @ 1-level & transfer positives @ the 2- and 3-levels. Canape after opening 1 or 1 (into a minor suit only). Playing Naturelle in another partnership.

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#6 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-July-12, 12:02

I think you have to accept that West's 3 bid was diabolical and you and your partner got stuffed (pardon the phraseology). This does happen at bridge...
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#7 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-July-12, 12:43

View PostFelicityR, on 2018-July-12, 12:02, said:

I think you have to accept that West's 3 bid was diabolical -500

When Ghandi was asked what he thought about western civilization he said: I think it would be a good idea.
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#8 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-July-12, 15:16

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-July-12, 09:03, said:

We play a double of 3 would show exactly 4 spades but I'm not sure that's standard in any way.

Interesting - how would you formulate that as an abstract rule?
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#9 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2018-July-12, 15:48

I agree with the auction up to 3c. 3c was a reach. Of course, it all depends on how you are playing 2d. There are people who like to play 2d as trash, but for me that has always been a constructive bid showing values. Since you know that partner has some values, and your heart suit is not really a thing of beauty, I'd go for a double at 3c. Contrary to popular opinion, this is not a "shut up partner" bid. Partner has some say in deciding to play there or not. With the offensive oriented hand they have, I'd expect them to pull to 3d (maybe 3s if they are optimistic). When they bid 3d, you can now bid 3s allowing partner to bid 3n, pass or 4s when appropriate.
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#10 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2018-July-13, 03:32

I think the auction shows how important it is to give weight to 4 card majors that are going to be hard to bid. I may be out on a limb but I prefer double to 1H and I prefer 1S to 2D
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#11 User is offline   fourdad 

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Posted 2018-July-13, 04:15

View Postnekthen, on 2018-July-13, 03:32, said:

I think the auction shows how important it is to give weight to 4 card majors that are going to be hard to bid. I may be out on a limb but I prefer double to 1H and I prefer 1S to 2D


AGREE!! And...IMO, the hand is strong enough for a X, then rebid as opposed to bidding hearts.
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#12 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-July-13, 05:20

A lot of this is system dependent.

For us the 1 over-call is normal (nowhere near a double then bid).

How do you play Advancer's 2 over the 1 overcall. It is variously played as non-forcing, constructive, forcing (or best of all, a transfer!). If you play the bid as forcing (my usual default), then I agree with Cyberyeti that this is not nearly good enough for a two-level change of suit force (If partner opened 1, the hand is not worth a 2-over-1 response, but a 1 over-call can be quite a bit weaker than an opening bid). Advancer should be content with bidding 1.

I'm not sure that 4 even makes on a trump lead?
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#13 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2018-July-13, 07:07

Hi,

#1 I dont like 3NT, 2D is NF, not a bad hand, but NF,
the shortage in partners suit is not a plus.

#2 2D is normal, with 54 we may discuss 1S instead of 2D,
not with 64

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#14 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-July-13, 08:08

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2018-July-13, 07:07, said:

Hi,

#1 I dont like 3NT, 2D is NF, not a bad hand, but NF,
the shortage in partners suit is not a plus.

#2 2D is normal, with 54 we may discuss 1S instead of 2D,
not with 64

With kind regards
Marlowe


This is consistent. If you play 2 as non-forcing it is the more descriptive bid.

But many play 2 as forcing - in this case it is an overstatement.
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#15 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2018-July-13, 09:02

North has a WTP double of 3C. Don't piss space away unless you're confident you know the right contract.
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#16 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-July-13, 11:40

As others have pointed out, the problem was North's 3NT bid. Very poor call; X is best there.

1H is a perfectly normal overcall. Even 45 (rather than 46), you should almost always overcall rather than X. If you X, you'll miss your 5/3 fits. If you overcall, you will often have a chance to X later.

2D is perfectly normal. At least here in the USA, standard expert is that no bid over an overcall is forcing except a cue bid. You have to bid (partner might have as much as a nice 17), and 2D shows where you live. Partner can still bid spades.

The 3C bid is awful (it shows a much better hand), but it does rob your partner of room. The answer is to X (optional). It doesn't matter what you do now (pass or 3S), you'll get to a good spot. Personally I would pass with a stiff heart.

Cheers,
mike
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#17 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2018-July-13, 15:21


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#18 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-July-13, 15:45

View Postblackshoe, on 2018-July-13, 15:21, said:




You can always find some way to get to the optimal spot by using a convention that very few people play. Most play 2C Michaels here, and if you play that, you need 5/5 (not 5/4 - please don't bid Michaels on 5/4 hands; certainly not 6/4). Your treatment is possible, too (I suspect that 2D would be majors with better spades?), but only at the cost of giving up a very useful bid (2D).

Cheers,
Mike
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#19 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-July-14, 02:07

View Postpescetom, on 2018-July-12, 15:16, said:

Interesting - how would you formulate that as an abstract rule?


Simply that when 3 suits have been bid, a double shows 4 of the unbid suit, bidding it shows 5.

It's more useful in circumstances like 1-(1)-1-(2) X shows 4, 3 shows 5, so partner with 3 clubs knows for certain whether you have a fit, but we keep it for all such auctions for simplicity.
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#20 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2018-July-14, 06:18

View Postdickiegera, on 2018-July-12, 07:14, said:




This was our bidding.

Bad result. Should be in Spades HOW BEST?

Thank you


I would call 1 over the heart bid. keeping the diamonds in reserve(Partner could bid them) You always should bid a four card major if youhave one. Partner has not denied spades so the chance of finding a fit in the suit is still feasible.

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