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Showing a void in response to 1M

#1 User is offline   Trick13 

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Posted 2018-July-07, 23:21

Currently we have the 2M+1 response to show all GF splinters. We relay these out and you can show singleton or void, and the hcp range 10-12,13-15, or 16+. The relay usually ends at the 4-level.

We never use it. Maybe we are worried about stuffing up the relays (a legitimate concern), or maybe it just seems bad in comparison to other sequences we have available.

I am wondering if we should use 2M+1 just for void splinters. Something like ..

1 - 2 ...
2NT ...
3 = Low void
3 = Middle void
3 = High void

Then we would just cue-bid. We usually use 3NT as a cue denying a club control (and therefore say a diamond cue would show both club and diamond controls).

What could a cue in the void suit mean?

Opener would have bids other than 2NT, perhaps

2NT = tell me your void, I'm slammish
3 = only tell me your void if you have extras

Or Responder's steps might be:
3 = Any minimum, relay for the void if you are still interested
3 = Low void, non min
3 = Middle void, non min
3 = High void, non min

Any suggestions?

The reason it is 2M+1 is because we used to have mini-splinters, but they hardly ever came up. So we decided to put all the mini-splinters into one bid to increase the frequency. It had to be 2M+1 so that we could show the shortage without getting above 3M. Then we added GF splinters that were revealed above 3M, and so it goes on...
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#2 User is online   Vampyr 

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Posted 2018-July-08, 00:11

I think that using low bids for voids is not very efficient, since voids are less frequent than other hands you might want to show. We use 3M+1 to show a void, but you only with a hand of splinter strength, ie 3-4 controls and not much else, or a monster.
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#3 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2018-July-10, 07:24

View PostTrick13, on 2018-July-07, 23:21, said:

What could a cue in the void suit mean?

And who knows what the void suit is? You have not shown it. My suggestion would be to have just one strength range, and show the suit after a relay rather than the strength, and then you could cue bid. I would rather, though, not use this method.

Do you have any other bids available, like 3M+1/2/3/4, or is it just 2M+1 that is free for a splinter? I would choose to include both singletons and voids, and give up cue bidding to allow the next step after the short suit to ask whether singleton or void.

It is difficult to make suggestions without seeing the meaning of all replies. I like 2M+1 to be 13+ that may have a shortage (which could be discovered), and use a natural bid >3M as your "low" splinter. As you can't ask "singleton or void?" over 4M-1, I use 3NT as the void splinter in M-1.
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#4 User is offline   Trick13 

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Posted 2018-July-10, 18:36

View PostfromageGB, on 2018-July-10, 07:24, said:

And who knows what the void suit is? You have not shown it. ...

I was thinking ahead of auctions like the below, where is the void suit:

1 - 2
2NT - 3
3 - 3
4

or

1 - 2
2NT - 3
3 - 3
3- 4

I guess it could deny a cue

View PostfromageGB, on 2018-July-10, 07:24, said:

My suggestion would be to have just one strength range, and show the suit after a relay rather than the strength, and then you could cue bid.


This is what I am thinking as well. The strength can be GF+ because we have at least one level for cue-bidding below game?


View PostfromageGB, on 2018-July-10, 07:24, said:

Do you have any other bids available, like 3M+1/2/3/4, or is it just 2M+1 that is free for a splinter? I would choose to include both singletons and voids, and give up cue bidding to allow the next step after the short suit to ask whether singleton or void.


We are opening a limited 1M and have transfer responses (obligatory unless opener as a freak), so we have many bids available.

2-level pre-empts: 1-2*; 2*-Pass
3-level pre-empts: 1-3
4-level pre-empts: 1-4 (could also be a sound raise with no slam interest)
Splinter: 1-2 which we are discussing
'Jacoby': 1-2NT includes hands with 12-13 that are prepared to stop in 3 if partner is very minimum (or worse)
'Bergen': 1-3 good 4-card raise, could also include some other hands if partner will always accept or almost accept with 3M-1
5-card invite: 1-3 an invite with 5-332, could also include some other hands if opener always accepts with 3M+1
Fit jumps: 1-3/4/4 - these have no slam interest and may be a bit of a stretch
Pudding raise: 1-3NT

Sound raise: 1-2 we play this 9-11 and use 3-way asking bids.

Then we have the raise that starts with a transfer, this seems a good way to start a slam investigation
GF raise: 1-2*; 2*-2 this shows 4+ with at least 1 of top 3 honours, heart support, game force, and denies one of the more specific types
Solid side raise: 1-2*; 2*-3 clubs are solid and just one control outside of trumps to cue-bid
Solid side raise: 1-2*; 2*-4 clubs are solid and no controls outside of trumps

And raises that start with an artificial inquiry
1-1; ... we might do this with a balanced 8 and and raise if partner shows a non-min 6-card suit or a max
1-1; ... we might do this with 2-card support and 12-13 hoping for a 6-card suit or a max
1-1; any-4 a strong 5332 raise


So my thinking is around the 1-2*; 2*-2 type sequences which seem a good way to start the auction, giving us two levels of cue-bidding below game. We include the splinters in there, but maybe remove the voids to 1-2
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#5 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2018-July-11, 10:23

View PostTrick13, on 2018-July-10, 18:36, said:

I was thinking ahead of auctions like the below, where is the void suit:

1 - 2
2NT - 3
3 - 3
4
...

I misinterpreted your first post, where you talked of showing "3 strength ranges", and 3 was "low void". I took this to mean 10-12 with unspecified void suit. From you new full example I now assume you mean club void, and next step asks range, so 3 is 10-12. Of course 4 is now an opener cue of the void. As opener does have a choice of cuing 3NT, 4 or 4, then it does make sense to assign meanings. I don't know what! How about the following?

Talking for a minute about cue bids in general, if spades are trumps, then yes 3NT can deny clubs, as there is room to (positively) cue all suits, but with hearts as trumps, when you do not have room to cue 3 (for example if responder had 13-15 club void and therefore bid 3 to show that strength), 3NT as the first available cue could be a spade cue.

However, here in this given lowest sequence possible, 3 is available, so opener bypassing that bid shows or denies spades according to agreement (I prefer denial cues, so a cue >3 for me shows spades, but I gather you prefer possessive cues, so opener is denying spades. Possessive cues are assumed hereafter.) Opener did have a choice of 3NT or 4, and any cue is seeking slam opposite a known 10-12, so I suggest 3NT would be asking strength, while 3 insists on a cue regardless of strength.

Assuming opener has denied spade control, responder will always bid just game without a spade control, so any other bid shows spades. Therefore, over 3NT (asking strength) responder with a poor hand (10-bad 11) will bid 4 regardless of controls, while a good hand (good 11-12) with a diamond control as well as the spades bids 4, but bids 4 to show a good hand (with spades) but denying diamonds. Over opener's 4 rather than 3NT, he is not interested in strength, so responder simply cues 4 if he has that as well as spades, but bids 4 without the diamonds.

In general, the "suit then strength" method always has room for a void suit cue, but it may fall to responder to bid it, as in this example hand if opener cued spades, or another hand with diamond void / mid strength, and opener cues clubs. In these cases, a cue of the void suit would fall to responder. In the first case it has been possible to cue all suits, but in the second case the spades cannot be shown. My suggestion is that :

(1) If there is room for all cues, and 3NT, 3NT from opener asks for only top of range to continue (responder's void cue showing good hand but denying a higher cue), and opener bypassing 3NT asks for continuation regardless; (b) 3NT from responder shows a poor hand but with something further to cue, and bypassing 3NT shows a good hand.
(2) If the ability to cue 3NT has been lost by the relays, but all suits can be cued, the void cue by opener asks for only a good responder to continue, bypassing it insists, while the void cue by responder shows weakness.
(3) if the ability to cue all suits has been lost by the relays, the void suit is cued by either party to show control of the lost suit
- eg 1 2, 2NT(shortage?) 3(void), 3(strength?) 3NT(13-15) - now you lose the natural spade cue but recover it by using the void diamond cue in its place.

It looks like your raise structure works, and your 2M+1 can be happily used for void splinters of different strengths. Other points or questions, though :
.. if 1 2NT is a balanced 'Jacoby', what is your "2M+1" void splinter when spades are trumps?
.. I assume 1 2, 2NT 3 is used for void spades
.. with any void other than clubs (or M-2) you need to be happy that 10hcp is enough for game, as you are forced there anyway - but that is probably OK.
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#6 User is offline   Trick13 

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Posted 2018-July-11, 19:03

View PostfromageGB, on 2018-July-11, 10:23, said:

It looks like your raise structure works, and your 2M+1 can be happily used for void splinters of different strengths. Other points or questions, though :
.. if 1 2NT is a balanced 'Jacoby', what is your "2M+1" void splinter when spades are trumps?
.. I assume 1 2, 2NT 3 is used for void spades
.. with any void other than clubs (or M-2) you need to be happy that 10hcp is enough for game, as you are forced there anyway - but that is probably OK.

Thanks for your thoughts. Still processing them.

It's just steps, so 1-2NT is the 2M+1 void splinter, and 1-3 is 'Jacoby'
Yes, 1 2, 2NT 3 is used for void spades
I was intending 2M+1 to be GF. With less we would bid a slightly nervous 2M good raise, and hope partner inquires if we have a shortage.

Thinking about for strength showing, I was gravitating away from that. In our original/current system we could have an auction 1..4 that maybe shows void and 13-15 hcp. Seems like we might have got uncomfortably high. Maybe it makes more sense for opener, already limited, to show range:
1-2...
2NT = enthusiastic relay for void
3 = less enthusiastic relay for void

Another idea for the cue in the void suit would be to show or deny extra length in trumps.
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