[virgosrock]

you decide. my second post on this topic.

---

[DozyDom]

To be honest, I don't really mind this. The hand fits the criteria for a strong jump shift - the massive balanced hand type - but I suspect 3NT is the only bid available there to show a strong balanced hand type, and I'd guess GIB's definition for 3NT isn't quite strong enough for such an exceptional 20-count. 4C, meanwhile, really isn't so vast a lie, and allows plenty of space for opener to describe his/her hand to investigate which strain - diamonds, clubs, spades, or NT - is best.

[virgosrock]

DozyDom, on 2018-June-27, 11:43, said:

To be honest, I don't really mind this. The hand fits the criteria for a strong jump shift - the massive balanced hand type - but I suspect 3NT is the only bid available there to show a strong balanced hand type, and I'd guess GIB's definition for 3NT isn't quite strong enough for such an exceptional 20-count. 4C, meanwhile, really isn't so vast a lie, and allows plenty of space for opener to describe his/her hand to investigate which strain - diamonds, clubs, spades, or NT - is best.

which is why skip the jump shift and just bid 2c gf?

[steve2005]

virgosrock, on 2018-June-27, 12:20, said:

which is why skip the jump shift and just bid 2c gf?

Using SJS on a balanced hand meant you missed a 6-2 ♠ fit and a 5-3♦ fit.

Other than being able to know partner has Q♣ I don't see any advantage to this auction.
If partner doesn't have Q♣ I wonder what Gib would have done then? It would probably have to guess as had found so little about partner's hand.

[DozyDom]

I'm not sure why anyone's complaining about the original SJS - they are supposed to include massive balanced hands, that's just part of the method. Complain to Soloway, not to GIB.

[virgosrock]

DozyDom, on 2018-June-28, 08:02, said:

I'm not sure why anyone's complaining about the original SJS - they are supposed to include massive balanced hands, that's just part of the method. Complain to Soloway, not to GIB.

west should bid 3S not 3d which shows 6S. Now GUBBO might bid 7S or heavens might RKC.
If massive balanced then make a move towards 6/7 NT not a ridiculous 4C. Soloway not to blame by any means.

[Stephen Tu]

I learned that they are supposed to be at most semi-balanced 17-19 for that hand type. With more you can just bid 2/1 and slam force later? Otherwise you have to be really careful how you define jumps to 4nt lest partner thinks it's RKC.

Also IMO if 2/1 is an alternative, 5332 balanced hands should be excluded, as you might belong in one of the unmentioned suits, and 2/1 handles this type hand perfectly well and saves a lot of space. 3c followed by 3nt should be some 17-19 semi-bal 6322 type of thing IMO which are awkward to describe precisely otherwise.
Rebidding 4c is supposed to set trumps absolutely, there is no more exploring for strain, subsequent side suit bids ought to be interpreted as cue bids.

[jammen]

I don't mind the 3♣ bid either, it's the idiotic 4♣ that missed the grand. Why not the obvious 3♥ followup?

[virgosrock]

jammen, on 2018-June-28, 11:30, said:

I don't mind the 3♣ bid either, it's the idiotic 4♣ that missed the grand. Why not the obvious 3♥ followup?

3H would be splinter with support in S in GUBBO system.

[steve2005]

virgosrock, on 2018-June-28, 12:10, said:

3H would be splinter with support in S in GUBBO system.

Whole system is horrid. After JS with balanced hand there is no way to show a balanced hand and force
Gib doesnt look at its rebids, but here it is a system design problem

[virgosrock]

steve2005, on 2018-June-28, 13:34, said:

Whole system is horrid. After JS with balanced hand there is no way to show a balanced hand and force
Gib doesnt look at its rebids, but here it is a system design problem

A look-ahead system is currently beyond GUBBO.
But 3C then 4C is quite ridiculous.

[johnu]

steve2005, on 2018-June-28, 13:34, said:

Whole system is horrid. After JS with balanced hand there is no way to show a balanced hand and force
Gib doesnt look at its rebids, but here it is a system design problem

A NT rebid is supposed to be the semi-balanced hand.

From the BBO GIB system notes for Soloway jump shifts,

1. Strong rebiddable suit, 17+ total points, 4+ controls (A=2, K=1), no side 4-card suit
2. Solid suit, 17+ total points, 4+ controls, may have a side 4-card suit
3. Rebiddable suit, 18+ HCP, 4+ controls, 5332 or 6322 shape.
4. Rebiddable suit, 17+ total points, 4+ controls, 4-card support for opener's suit

So the system bid is to bid NT (or raise a NT rebid) with a type 3 hand. Stephen Tu says he learned this showed 17-19 max? First, 17 is less than the required HCP specified in 3, and second, there is no max specified in the description. If that was the case, then why not 4NT if 3NT doesn't show 20 HCP? Clearly this must be quantitative because with spade support type 4, the system bid is 3♠, and with a type 1 or 2 hand, the rebid would be 4♣.

[smerriman]

johnu, on 2018-June-29, 14:23, said:

Stephen Tu says he learned this showed 17-19 max? First, 17 is less than the required HCP specified in 3, and second, there is no max specified in the description. If that was the case, then why not 4NT if 3NT doesn't show 20 HCP? Clearly this must be quantitative because with spade support type 4, the system bid is 3♠, and with a type 1 or 2 hand, the rebid would be 4♣.

I think he meant that's how he learned it should be played, not how GIB plays it. 4NT is ridiculously defined as Blackwood in diamonds, but it couldn't really be quantitative if opener rebid 3♠ so it wouldn't solve everything. Putting an upper limit on the balanced jump shift is the right solution.

[johnu]

smerriman, on 2018-June-29, 14:57, said:

I think he meant that's how he learned it should be played, not how GIB plays it. 4NT is ridiculously defined as Blackwood in diamonds, but it couldn't really be quantitative if opener rebid 3♠ so it wouldn't solve everything. Putting an upper limit on the balanced jump shift is the right solution.

LOL GIB, 4NT is Blackwood in diamonds 3♦ doesn't even show a diamond suit Surely finding an entirely new suit after a strong jump shift was a 0% goal of the Soloway SJS philosophy.

If opener rebids 3♠, I don't see why 4NT couldn't still be quantitative. Rebid clubs with a club 1 suiter, cue bid with spade support or raise spades without an outside control. After a cue bid, a later 4NT is clearly RKC for spades, and after a 4♣ rebid, a later 4NT can be RKC for clubs.

Probably many times too complicated for GIB as this requires planning several steps in advance.

[virgosrock]

johnu, on 2018-June-29, 16:15, said:

LOL GIB, 4NT is Blackwood in diamonds 3♦ doesn't even show a diamond suit Surely finding an entirely new suit after a strong jump shift was a 0% goal of the Soloway SJS philosophy.

If opener rebids 3♠, I don't see why 4NT couldn't still be quantitative. Rebid clubs with a club 1 suiter, cue bid with spade support or raise spades without an outside control. After a cue bid, a later 4NT is clearly RKC for spades, and after a 4♣ rebid, a later 4NT can be RKC for clubs.

Probably many times too complicated for GIB as this requires planning several steps in advance.

From a bidding table perspective if nothing fits SJS then just bid 2C GF. No?

[johnu]

virgosrock, on 2018-June-30, 06:09, said:

From a bidding table perspective if nothing fits SJS then just bid 2C GF. No?

The best solution is to fix the bidding table for future rounds of bidding. Since GIB isn't looking ahead at future bidding situations, how would GIB know that there isn't a suitable rebid available for the jump shifter? This hand clearly meets the 3rd case for a SJS.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

how would GIB know that there isn't a suitable rebid available for the jump shifter?

If the rules for the SJS excluded 20+ balanced hands without a solid club suit, then it wouldn't run into a rebid problem, being hemmed in to bidding 2c initially. IMO it should also exclude strong balanced hands with 3 cd major support. GIB doesn't have to know, just the programmers do, they can keep GIB from bidding 3c in the first place without a rebid, without GIB really understanding why.

It happens to match the system notes rules, but IMO it's better to fix those rules and have it bid 2c with 5332 balanced, since you might conceivably belong in a third suit for slam not necessarily NT. I don't think there is any advantage in jump shifting on these hands vs. 2/1. Save space, give partner room for a more descriptive rebid. Balanced hands should want to ask about partner's shape more than show power, which they can do on slower sequences. It's long suits that benefit from JS, with 2c followed by 3c being ambiguous about suit quality.

[johnu]

Stephen Tu, on 2018-June-30, 12:47, said:

GIB doesn't have to know, just the programmers do

In general, GIB == Programmers. Too often, it is GIB == Original Programmer (ie Ginsberg) who is no longer around, so it is GIB == "nobody".