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Not a double negative after 2C opening

#1 User is offline   rr9000 

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Posted 2018-June-12, 19:35

Playing cheapest minor rebid as a double negative following a 2C opening, what do you bid after 2C - 2D; 2H -

with xx Jx KJxx ATxxx ?

3C would show the double negative, but nothing else seems quite like it fits.

Thanks for suggestions!

Cheers,

RR9000
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#2 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-June-12, 19:56

Gib wants you to respond 2NT not 2D on this I think?!
Which basically completely destroys auction for opener.
Maybe I have wrong point count for 2N but any natural 2NT over 2C opening is just a bad idea.
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#3 User is offline   rr9000 

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Posted 2018-June-12, 20:49

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-June-12, 19:56, said:

Gib wants you to respond 2NT not 2D on this I think?!
Which basically completely destroys auction for opener.
Maybe I have wrong point count for 2N but any natural 2NT over 2C opening is just a bad idea.


I think I do recall seeing Gib bid 2NT on hands like this, but my partner thought starting with a 2D response was a better idea. Perhaps he would have considered the ugly 2NT more seriously if he'd thought more about his rebid problem. Perhaps not. Gotta get out of this pickle some way or another. I'll be interested to see what people say.

RR9000
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#4 User is online   wank 

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Posted 2018-June-12, 22:09

2nt showing values. if partner bids 3nt you can try 4c if you like.

hopefully you'll get an opportunity to offer hearts at some point.
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-June-13, 03:25

What was 2 initially ?

When I played that sort of double negative we used to use 2N as showing the suit of the bid that was used for the double negative.
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#6 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-June-13, 05:09

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-June-13, 03:25, said:

What was 2 initially ?

When I played that sort of double negative we used to use 2N as showing the suit of the bid that was used for the double negative.

that is with 2H as initial double neg then 2N shows Hearts
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-June-13, 08:05

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-June-13, 05:09, said:

that is with 2H as initial double neg then 2N shows Hearts


Nope, not at all what I said, 2-2-2 if 3 was double neg then 2N would show clubs
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#8 User is offline   661_Pete 

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Posted 2018-June-13, 09:44

As it so happens, I had exactly that sequence: 2 - 2 - 2 the other day - and got stranded in it. Apparently partner misunderstood that I meant my 2 to be GF except in the event of the sequence 2 - 2 - 2NT.

But perhaps I was saved from a worse fate. Had we bid on, I would not have stopped short of 6 or even 7 which looks virtually cold on the deal. But 6 fails on an early ruff by the oppos! 4 was solid, though, but would I have stopped there?
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#9 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2018-June-13, 13:22

This is why I hate nebulous 2 waiting with a passion. Opening 2 is a bad bid to begin with, 2 just kneecaps it all together.
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#10 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-June-14, 08:56

View Post661_Pete, on 2018-June-13, 09:44, said:

As it so happens, I had exactly that sequence: 2 - 2 - 2 the other day - and got stranded in it. Apparently partner misunderstood that I meant my 2 to be GF except in the event of the sequence 2 - 2 - 2NT.

Even if it's not GF, responder can't pass opener's 2nd bid.

#11 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2018-June-15, 18:46

2c-2d-2h should be a strong UNBALANCED hand. If you are balanced, then you should be making a range showing bid in nt. Therefore, after 2h, I'm going to bid 2n and hear what my partner rebids. I'm expecting to hear a new suit, or 3h. 3n would surprise me and having me scratching my head.
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#12 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-June-15, 20:13

If you have a second negative bid (here cheapest minor), in this sequence,

2 - 2
2 - 2 NT

then the 2 NT bid can be an unspecified positive (from 5 up to 20 HCP). It doesn't specifically promise any stoppers or promise a balanced hand, but is more of a waiting bid just confirming you don't have a bust. Its importance is that it conserves bidding space which allows the 2 bidder to continue describing the big hand.
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#13 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-June-16, 08:59

View Postrr9000, on 2018-June-12, 19:35, said:

Playing cheapest minor rebid as a double negative following a 2C opening, what do you bid after 2C - 2D; 2H -

with xx Jx KJxx ATxxx ?

3C would show the double negative, but nothing else seems quite like it fits.

Thanks for suggestions!

Cheers,

RR9000


So much of your answer depends on your agreements for the 2C opener. For example, in my old partnership we adopted a 2C system where three hand types could be shown: strong no-trumps, strong 1-suiters, and strong 2-suiters (described by jump rebids). Because of that agreement, I would be able to bid 3H would not difficulty.

Taking that same thinking further, the reason we structured 2C that way was based on frequency of hand types. By that same thread of thought, when a random partner opens 2C and rebids 2H, it is most likely he has a single-suited hand - I think 3H is a reasonable choice then, and with your hand.

Most likely your best place to play will not be in the club suit - it may but unlikely - and trying to untangle that suit in this auction and getting to a reasonable contract is difficult without solid agreements on what each bid means.

Another possibility is to go ahead and bid 3C - which, even though initially a second negative, cannot be passed - and then after partners next call, bid again to show what the Precision system used to use as the "impossible negative".
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#14 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-June-16, 09:25

View Postrmnka447, on 2018-June-15, 20:13, said:

If you have a second negative bid (here cheapest minor), in this sequence,

2 - 2
2 - 2 NT

then the 2 NT bid can be an unspecified positive (from 5 up to 20 HCP). It doesn't specifically promise any stoppers or promise a balanced hand, but is more of a waiting bid just confirming you don't have a bust. Its importance is that it conserves bidding space which allows the 2 bidder to continue describing the big hand.


Or like us play Kokish where responder is forced to bid a 2 relay after 2.
This permits us to show more precise NT ranges and still allows the the 2 bidder to continue describing the big hand.
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