[jammen]

1♦=Minor suit opening--3+ D; 11-21 HCP; 12-22 total points

1♥= one over one--4+♥ 6+ total points

4♦= Agressive weak jump overcall--7+♦ 11-HCP; 3+ total points

4♥= twice rebiddable 13+ total points

I should have made it if I wasn't so disgusted with the failure to double 4♦.

---

[virgosrock]

jammen, on 2018-May-30, 10:02, said:

1♦=Minor suit opening--3+ D; 11-21 HCP; 12-22 total points

1♥= one over one--4+♥ 6+ total points

4♦= Agressive weak jump overcall--7+♦ 11-HCP; 3+ total points

4♥= twice rebiddable 13+ total points

I should have made it if I wasn't so disgusted with the failure to double 4♦.

---

if the 1H bidder has 5-6 hcp - possible - they will probably be down 1 or even make. Look at the 98765 spots in d. GUBBO will probably take small ruffs and might even endplay north in d. Plays bad break contracts very well.

vrock

[Stephen Tu]

I don't know if it's so clear, it depends how you want to define double. Like maybe you want to double with some 4342 18 count that wants partner to bid or pass as appropriate, not having a trump stack, and not wanting to commit to bidding 4H in what might be a 4-3? It could be argued that min hands with trump stacks are just supposed to pass, and South with good hands should cater to this by trying double.

[virgosrock]

Stephen Tu, on 2018-May-30, 11:32, said:

I don't know if it's so clear, it depends how you want to define double. Like maybe you want to double with some 4342 18 count that wants partner to bid or pass as appropriate, not having a trump stack, and not wanting to commit to bidding 4H in what might be a 4-3? It could be argued that min hands with trump stacks are just supposed to pass, and South with good hands should cater to this by trying double.

Clearly not clear LOL. 4dx could be 1/2/3 down at fav.
with 6 hearts and so many hcp south would be hard pressed to double. Seems like best is 4H.
and not be upset because GUBBO passed with d stack. Will affect current and next few hands.

vrock

[Stephen Tu]

The idea behind my proposed definition of North's double (strong bal, not clear call, you can pass or pull it to 4H), is to do something intelligent when West has KQJT9xxx of diamonds, North is strong with A empty, which is in theory supposed to happen more often than North holding KQJTx trumps against rational opponents. This allows a weakish South with long hearts to bid a making 4H, which esp. at this vulnerability might be a lot more profitable at +620/650 vs.perhaps only 300 defending. Or a stronger South to proceed towards slam knowing North is very strong, rather than weak and wasted diamond values.

When the hands are like actual hand, South has enough to dbl 4d as strong "DSIP" (do something intelligent partner), which might well be best if North has heart stiff or lesser diamonds that don't want to unilaterally double. Or if your agreement is North's double is transferrable values power double not "penalty for god's sake never ever pull this".

When South is weaker, South has to pass, and you miss a chance at increasing the penalty when North has this rare trump stack hand. But in this case your side wasn't really making anything, so you don't have a score to protect; you might win MP/IMPs vs. teammates/field that bids more tamely on the West cards. It's kind of like the same issue as opening (4d)-dbl? Do you want to cater solely towards trump stack hands or do you want to cater towards hands where your side might get better scores on offense? You have to give up something on one subset of hands, can't cater to both without having two different double cards.

[virgosrock]

Stephen Tu, on 2018-May-30, 14:34, said:

The idea behind my proposed definition of North's double (strong bal, not clear call, you can pass or pull it to 4H), is to do something intelligent when West has KQJT9xxx of diamonds, North is strong with A empty, which is in theory supposed to happen more often than North holding KQJTx trumps against rational opponents. This allows a weakish South with long hearts to bid a making 4H, which esp. at this vulnerability might be a lot more profitable at +620/650 vs.perhaps only 300 defending. Or a stronger South to proceed towards slam knowing North is very strong, rather than weak and wasted diamond values.

When the hands are like actual hand, South has enough to dbl 4d as strong "DSIP" (do something intelligent partner), which might well be best if North has heart stiff or lesser diamonds that don't want to unilaterally double. Or if your agreement is North's double is transferrable values power double not "penalty for god's sake never ever pull this".

When South is weaker, South has to pass, and you miss a chance at increasing the penalty when North has this rare trump stack hand. But in this case your side wasn't really making anything, so you don't have a score to protect; you might win MP/IMPs vs. teammates/field that bids more tamely on the West cards. It's kind of like the same issue as opening (4d)-dbl? Do you want to cater solely towards trump stack hands or do you want to cater towards hands where your side might get better scores on offense? You have to give up something on one subset of hands, can't cater to both without having two different double cards.

I bet MeckWell have this worked out to a T perhaps a full sheet of paper:)

[jammen]

It is inconceivable that Gibbo would play 4♦X as anything other than penalty. If you don't penalty double with this hand because you are afraid that the opponents may make it then you are playing losing bridge.

[Stephen Tu]

GIB plays the double as power, currently, not "penalty". Like I said, it has nothing to do with being afraid that the opponents can make. It's what hands you want to cater to. Against most opponents, you will rarely, rarely have a min hand with a powerful trump stack. On the other hand if you have an 18 count with Ace empty of diamonds only, you can't really pass, you can't really support on 2 or 3 hearts only, and if you double, and you are doing it with both 18 counts and 12 counts with a trump stack, responder has no idea when to pull or not. You end up sitting all the time and picking up a paltry 100 or 300 instead of 620, or 500 instead of +1430. That's losing bridge also. The question is which is the most profitable strategy over all the times West bids 4d, not what works best on one single hand. Either definition of double rates to lose when you have the wrong hand for it.
On this hand, if South is aware that North can pass with min and trump stack, can perhaps find a double which North can then easily pass. So this hand doesn't have to be a loss.

[jammen]

Stephen, how/where did you find out that GIB plays a double of 4♦ as point showing and not as penalty?

[Stephen Tu]

I open a bidding table, controlled by host, swapped back and forth forcing bids to match your auction (not bother forcing the actual cards to match, since I am forcing things, and just interested in bid meanings), up until the point in question. After I force the 1H bid, I switch to the other seat, seat a robot opposite, make the opps 4d bid, then hover over the options to see what they mean. If I recall correctly, double shows 17+.
Also, in what I think is a major flaw, there's rarely any clear description for GIB doubles as to whether they are intended "penalty" or not. You can sometimes infer from how many trumps they show, but there are some really weird ones defined ("takeout doubles" that show 2 or MORE trumps? low level penalty doubles that show only 2+ trump??) and we've all seen GIB takeout doubles that should be left in and vice versa.

The takeout/penalty dbl situation in GIB is a major mess in general. But this particular auction, at least for opener's action, is defensible IMO.

[jdonn]

If I were north I would not double 4D. That would show a much better hand. Of course I am not worried they will make, I am worried partner will think I have something and pull to a contract that goes down.