[zhasbeen]

This is 2nd time in past week that this has happened, and BBO has been aware of this problem for months that I know of. Sadly, it is only one of dozens of recurring GIB disasters that you ask your customers to put up with. They come in all sizes and shapes. Obviously they cannot be fixed, yet BBO continues to keep going with this out dated hardware.

This is a known problem, yet nothing has been done. How many times have we seen GIB blast to small slam off 2 aces or a grand slam off an ace? How many customers will put up with these disasters more than 2-3 times before hitting the door?

http://tinyurl.com/ybczw4ou

---

[jdonn]

BBO does plan to keep using GIB, and fixing problems over time. While some problems are very frustrating, the users should never expect perfection.

[zhasbeen]

jdonn, on 2018-May-07, 11:49, said:

BBO does plan to keep using GIB, and fixing problems over time. While some problems are very frustrating, the users should never expect perfection.

Jdonn,

I appreciate your response, and I wish I could believe that GIB can be fixed. However, I’m not sure that even you believe it. You do your job as best as you can with what you have to work with, which unfortunately is outdated equipment. The problems that GIB has are widespread and serious, yet I see no improvement since I played my first tournament in August of last year. That was 1900 tournaments ago, probably more than most members play in 5-10 years. I’ve been hoping there were be improvements but I’m not seeing any.

Problems like the one I just reported have been happening since I started. If a Robot can’t be programmed to refrain from leaping to slams that can opponents can set by cashing their ace(s), then how can they program it to do anything? This is just one error type of dozens that have been happening for months, and maybe even years.

Just look at this thread. For the most part it is just a place for players to vent their frustrations with little, if any hope of improvements.

“While some problems are very frustrating, the users should never expect perfection…”

Indeed they are frustrating, but I have never expected anything close to perfection. I’d settle for a whole lot less than what I’ve heard many others ask for, but the stuff that GIB does or doesn’t do borders on unacceptable.
The last review I read for bridge-playing robots had GIB rated 4th out of 5 worth even considering. I think the article was dated 2011 and here we are in 2018 with no noticeable improvements in GIB. So far as I know BBO is the #1 web site for playing bridge online but it’s not hard to imagine them dropping by the wayside if they continue to stand pat with GIB.

“Why do you keep playing?” one might ask.

First of all, my enthusiasm for bridge is possibly more than ever. I’m retired now and have plenty of time to play, which was not the case during my 20 year break from the game that ended last year. Playing in the BBO tournaments has enabled me to play tons of hands in a relatively short time. Most of the hands are challenging with various tricks and traps to think about. You also get to see video replays of all the boards you played, plus the traveler and links to how the other players bid and played them. Then there’s the excitement of competing against the other players who played the same hands with the same 3 robots (all GIBS).

With all that, there are days when I plan to play 5-6 tournaments but end up walking away after 1 or 2. I’m playing 36% fewer this than last year and the trend has been heading down. Results haven’t been the catalyst either. My average matchpoint scores are fraction of a pct better than last year, and I doubt having vastly improved robots would result in any improvement in that regard. However, it would make for a more enjoyable game if we had better robot partners.

[helene_t]

I think the 3♥ bid is not good, GIB will expect more HCPs which will justify the 7♥ bid.

I am not saying that this is how the system ought to work, but I think that is how it works, and unlike human partners, GIB won't adapt to the style of his partner.

[zhasbeen]

helene_t, on 2018-May-08, 20:44, said:

I think the 3♥ bid is not good, GIB will expect more HCPs which will justify the 7♥ bid.

I am not saying that this is how the system ought to work, but I think that is how it works, and unlike human partners, GIB won't adapt to the style of his partner.

Helene,

I remember you as one of the more knowledgeable posters before I gave up on the forums. However, I disagree with you on this one. Nothing could justify GIB’s leap to 7. Even if I held 22 hcp the odds would be in favor of us being off an ace. You just don’t bid a grand slam on a wild guess (unless you are GIB).

My 3H rebid says my suit is good enough to play game opposite a void, which it is. This hand will make game opposite a yarbrough most of the time. With an outside ace and 4-card suit headed by the KQ it is more than a strong preempt, and plenty good enough for a strong 2 bid. Would you ever want to risk having the deal passed out while holding this hand? Don’t say it...

In effect, Jdonn’s answer to my question said, “This is as good as it gets. Take it or leave it.”

I’ll give him credit for an honest answer

[smerriman]

Might not be appropriate humour given how you're feeling right now, but mildly "amusing" - if you only rebid 2♥, GIB bids 3♣ - cheaper minor Two common bugs in one hand.

[manudude03]

Just wanted to point out also that gib does not play 2C-2D-3H as setting trumps. In fact, 2H and 3H have the same definition in the gib system.

[jdonn]

"here we are in 2018 with no noticeable improvements in GIB"

I know it's just frustration speaking, but comments like that are obviously untrue and don't contribute to the discussion. There have been nearly 40 I think upgrades in those years, with several thousand problems worked on or fixed.

The fact is, there are a few dozen frequent complainers about GIB out of tens of thousands of users. Now, many of those complaints are quite valid (many are not, but that doesn't really matter). I am certainly not advocating for GIB jumping to a grand slam on this hand (although if I was forced to guess the final contract with his hand over 4H for my life it would probably be 7H). And problems do get worked on, albeit not at a pace most would prefer.

But the fact is, BBO has made the decision long ago to stick with GIB. It has a ton of repeat users who seem satisfied with what they get. I have been receiving these threats to stop using GIB altogether for years, and while I'm sure some people have done so (which is not good of course), the vast majority of users clearly won't. Don't forget, most GIB users are on average worse at bridge than GIB is, often much worse. BBO is very honest and forthright about what you are getting with GIB. Sorry but this is how it is, for the foreseeable future.

[virgosrock]

manudude03, on 2018-May-09, 04:12, said:

Just wanted to point out also that gib does not play 2C-2D-3H as setting trumps. In fact, 2H and 3H have the same definition in the gib system.

2c-2d-4h as well?

vrock

[johnu]

jdonn, on 2018-May-09, 10:31, said:

The fact is, there are a few dozen frequent complainers about GIB out of tens of thousands of users.

And there are just a few dozen frequent posters in the entire BBO forum and the number seems to be decreasing in the past couple of years, not increasing. A number of people have burst on the forums in the past with frequent and interesting bug reports. For the most part, they quietly disappear. My speculation is that they get discouraged by not seeing any progress and stop posting.

[johnu]

jdonn, on 2018-May-09, 10:31, said:

But the fact is, BBO has made the decision long ago to stick with GIB.

Maybe it's time to revisit that decision as competing programs have presumably gotten better as the years have gone by and GIB is desperately treading water.

[helene_t]

zhasbeen, on 2018-May-09, 00:37, said:

Nothing could justify GIB’s leap to 7. Even if I held 22 hcp the odds would be in favor of us being off an ace. You just don’t bid a grand slam on a wild guess (unless you are GIB).

Yeah you are right, it doesn't justify 7♥. I wonder what makes GIB decide not to ask for keycards. If Wayne is correct that 3♥ means the same as 2♥ it is a bit strange that GIB bids 7♥ over 3♥ but not over 2♥.

[zhasbeen]

smerriman, on 2018-May-09, 02:02, said:

Might not be appropriate humour given how you're feeling right now, but mildly "amusing" - if you only rebid 2♥, GIB bids 3♣ - cheaper minor Two common bugs in one hand.

Some similarity to 3NT opening on GIB convention card stating 25-27 Hcp. When I picked up a balanced 25-27 and opened 3NT GIB passed. Those who opened 2C and rebid 2NT showing 22-24 were taken to the cold slam by GIB.

[zhasbeen]

johnu, on 2018-May-09, 13:16, said:

And there are just a few dozen frequent posters in the entire BBO forum and the number seems to be decreasing in the past couple of years, not increasing. A number of people have burst on the forums in the past with frequent and interesting bug reports. For the most part, they quietly disappear. My speculation is that they get discouraged by not seeing any progress and stop posting.

Yes

[zhasbeen]

jdonn, on 2018-May-09, 10:31, said:

"here we are in 2018 with no noticeable improvements in GIB"

I know it's just frustration speaking, but comments like that are obviously untrue and don't contribute to the discussion. There have been nearly 40 I think upgrades in those years, with several thousand problems worked on or fixed.

The fact is, there are a few dozen frequent complainers about GIB out of tens of thousands of users. Now, many of those complaints are quite valid (many are not, but that doesn't really matter). I am certainly not advocating for GIB jumping to a grand slam on this hand (although if I was forced to guess the final contract with his hand over 4H for my life it would probably be 7H). And problems do get worked on, albeit not at a pace most would prefer.

But the fact is, BBO has made the decision long ago to stick with GIB. It has a ton of repeat users who seem satisfied with what they get. I have been receiving these threats to stop using GIB altogether for years, and while I'm sure some people have done so (which is not good of course), the vast majority of users clearly won't. Don't forget, most GIB users are on average worse at bridge than GIB is, often much worse. BBO is very honest and forthright about what you are getting with GIB. Sorry but this is how it is, for the foreseeable future.

The key word I used to start off my post was “noticeable”.

If GIB has improved I’m not seeing it and I’ve played more than 1900 tournaments since mid-August of last year.

“There have been nearly 40 I think upgrades in those years, with several thousand problems worked on or fixed”

I have no doubt that you have been trying but it looks to me like you have an impossible job in trying to fix GIB. Despite all those upgrades and fixes GIB continues to make the same serious errors plus an occasional new one, and there doesn’t seem to be an end to them in sight.

“The fact is, there are a few dozen frequent complainers about GIB out of tens of thousands of users…”

After my try at coming to the forums I concluded that I had a choice of quitting BBO or accepting the situation as is and continuing to play. I chose the latter. I wouldn’t assume for a minute that most users are happy with GIB just because they keep playing. I'm a good example. I suspect that most players put up with “him” to play hands, compete with other humans, win masterpoints, and have some interesting deals to talk about with various offline partners.

I think you’d be hard pressed to find many players who have entered more than a handful of BBO tournaments that are satisfied with GIB.
I’m sure I haven’t played my last BBO robot tournament, but I’m just as sure I’ll be playing considerably less in the days and months to come. Accepting the situation “as is” becomes considerably more difficult when you tack on “with little hope of improvement”.

You can call all this complaining or whatever you want, but this is my take.

[helene_t]

It's not true that GIB hasn't improved noticeable. I remember a time when GIB would very often raise small slam bids to grand for no good reason, and when it would routinely fail to lead an ace against 7NT. And where it would overrule partner's captainship after it had preempted itself.

I think it is largely fir for purpose. Most of the mistakes it makes are not really a nuisance. The biggest drawback is that it only plays its own system. When using GIB as an opponent that's not a big issue except that it doesn't have an adequate defense against strong club systems and such. If you want to practice your own bidding system with a robot partner you probably don't need to play online so you could buy some other product instead.

[virgosrock]

helene_t, on 2018-May-09, 19:53, said:

It's not true that GIB hasn't improved noticeable. I remember a time when GIB would very often raise small slam bids to grand for no good reason, and when it would routinely fail to lead an ace against 7NT. And where it would overrule partner's captainship after it had preempted itself.

I think it is largely fir for purpose. Most of the mistakes it makes are not really a nuisance. The biggest drawback is that it only plays its own system. When using GIB as an opponent that's not a big issue except that it doesn't have an adequate defense against strong club systems and such. If you want to practice your own bidding system with a robot partner you probably don't need to play online so you could buy some other product instead.

I came back to MoneyBridge - Highest skill/slowest speed as always - after a gap of 10 years in May, 2017. Laid-off -> retired.
Without intervention GIBBO's bidding is superb other than crazy jumps. With intervention GIBBO is almost a BIG ZERO in bidding.
10 years ago one would see 1n-2c-2d-3nt-4nt(LOL). Not so almost anymore.

I recommend removing "points" and going to traditional 4321 evaluation unless the two hands have 9+ trumps together. Assuming "points" are considered only when 9+ fit exists. This removes wild swings due to "points" evaluation.

Restore defensive signalling to traditional or udca. Again the source of wild swings.

I have more but above are essential improvements.

vrock

[Bermy]

johnu, on 2018-May-09, 13:16, said:

And there are just a few dozen frequent posters in the entire BBO forum and the number seems to be decreasing in the past couple of years, not increasing. A number of people have burst on the forums in the past with frequent and interesting bug reports. For the most part, they quietly disappear. My speculation is that they get discouraged by not seeing any progress and stop posting.

Yes, I count myself amount those frequent posters, who has simply given up. What is the point of complaining if all you get in return is excuses as to how impossible the job is. I recently downloaded ibridgeplus, (highly recommended to iPad and iPhone users) to find a real bridge robot, one I can really identify with. While I admit the interface is not quite perfect yet, I will not complain about the robot play since bridge is NOT a perfect science, and I do not expect perfect bridge playing robots. However, I must admit how nice it is to be able to play with a robot partner that bids and signals my way. If the robot does not behave as I wish, I simply edit the system until it does. Many bidding systems are available including Precision, Advance Precision, Acol, 2/1, says, polish, sef and more. I can bid a system I want to play, and not the system set for me by programmers who design methods that simply don’t work. Results have more variation, and if you get a result you didn’t like, you can look at how others bid it and find better methods.
I must say how nice it is to play real bridge for a change, without the “best hand” nonsense. I’m influencing results again with weak hands, something one can’t do with gib. Playing too much Gib. Bridge does not give you sufficient practice for the real world, since you rarely get hands less than 11 hip. I also have no limitations on the blind cards, so playing with the advantage of knowing no hand is better than yours no longer applies. The most noticeable difference is that the cards have changed too. I can play hands where the finesse actually works some of the time. Opps don’t seam to always lead the perfect card, almost as if it knows it’s partners short suit, and always finding the perfect switch. Somehow I get the feeling that gib robots seem to know more than it should. Hands are repetitive and very familiar. If I need a finesse to make a contract, BBO hands seem to make sure that the finesse will fail, so it pays to try a different line, however when this is the percentage play, it’s nice to know that the finesse at least has a chance.

So if frequent complaining does not work, do as I did............Find a new robot. If all of us voted with our feet, maybe BBO will find a new robot too.

[jeigh]

jdonn, on 2018-May-09, 10:31, said:

"here we are in 2018 with no noticeable improvements in GIB"

[...]

The fact is, there are a few dozen frequent complainers about GIB out of tens of thousands of users. Now, many of those complaints are quite valid (many are not, but that doesn't really matter). I am certainly not advocating for GIB jumping to a grand slam on this hand (although if I was forced to guess the final contract with his hand over 4H for my life it would probably be 7H). And problems do get worked on, albeit not at a pace most would prefer.

But the fact is, BBO has made the decision long ago to stick with GIB. It has a ton of repeat users who seem satisfied with what they get. I have been receiving these threats to stop using GIB altogether for years, and while I'm sure some people have done so (which is not good of course), the vast majority of users clearly won't. Don't forget, most GIB users are on average worse at bridge than GIB is, often much worse. BBO is very honest and forthright about what you are getting with GIB. Sorry but this is how it is, for the foreseeable future.

I am probably worse than GIB at bridge. That's why I don't post a bunch of complaints. I'm willing to bet a lot of the people you think are satisfied with it aren't. I *always* hover over every bid (playing solitaire) in hopes of getting an inkling of whatever wild-goosery the bid is meant to convey, but I often find the other hands, especially my robot partner's, between 3 and 8 points off whatever it's promising me in either direction. And I often find not a single bid that can describe my own hand within the same range. I usually close the window sad and frustrated after only a few hands.

Just feedback here. Don't assume that because most of us don't take the time to complain, or don't feel we're good enough to be taken seriously, that we're satisfied with it.

[zhasbeen]

I can’t speak for everyone, but I haven’t noticed any improvement in GIB’s overall play since I started in August of 2017. I have played only tournaments with 3 GIB’s and 1 human at each table, so my sample doesn’t include the other forms of play that BBO offers. Of those,more than 90% have been the ACBL sanctioned 12-board matches. The 1065 matchpoint games (tournaments) I’ve played have averaged 29 tables. Average tables for 335 IMP games has been 22. I also keep a blizzard of other stats.

My objective when I started this thread is pretty much described in the heading. Venting of some frustrations has been a byproduct.

I don’t consider myself to be a BBO basher or a chronic complainer. When I realized that I was moving in that direction I stopped posting. I’d much rather play than complain, and have. However, I believe that BBO is making a mistake by continuing to go with GIB for the indefinite future, unless there is more proof that the problems can be fixed than what most of us have seen so far.

I am aware that there is no easy solution, and replacing all the GIBs would not be cheap. It might not even be possible, but keeping an open mind to change would be a start. Maybe it could be done more gradually than all it once.

If BBO actually believes that GIB can be fixed, don’t keep us in the dark about what the next upgrade is going to correct, and give us a reasonable approximation of when. I’m all for fixing up ol’ GIB if I can see noticeable improvement in some of his more serious flaws.

In addition to fixing the wild jumps to slam, here’s another recurring problem hand type. It would be an understatement to say that GIB does not handle two-suiters well. A robot can not claim to play bridge and bid this way. Anything that calls itself an upgrade has to correct these 2 problems, imo.
More accurate definitions would be right up there.

http://tinyurl.com/ya4akhbv

http://tinyurl.com/y7h7rjes

http://tinyurl.com/yb52y5fw

I’d much rather find something to cheer about than complain