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Asks for kings. Hears what it needs to. Stops in 6

#1 User is offline   wbartley 

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Posted 2018-April-24, 17:38

Just play bridge robots. Human South.

My question is this and I've asked it before. Why does the robot bid 5NT if it doesn't know what to do with the answer?



I'm not saying GIB should bid the grand here but what is it hoping to hear when it bids 5NT? Surely 6 was the best answer it could have hoped for.
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#2 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2018-April-24, 19:30

There have been a lot of other, better examples posted over the last decade where it should have counted 13 tricks but doesn't bid the grand. Here it really doesn't know anything about your rather crucial DJ which could easily not be there at all, be worthless in H, or leave you with a finesse in clubs.

I really don't mind an auto-5nt holding all keycards + trump Q if grand is in the realm of possibility even if north can't count it and won't bid it over any particular response, because sometimes the other hand has undisclosed extras/source of tricks, and is able to bid grand on that basis, which it wouldn't be able to do if the 4nt bidder just bid 6 since an ace might be missing. It's probably much easier to program it to always bid 5nt in these situations, rather than selectively do it, and I'd prefer that it always did it vs. randomly not do it.

But for counting 13 tricks and bidding 7, there have been many better examples.
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#3 User is offline   virgosrock 

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Posted 2018-April-25, 04:42

View PostStephen Tu, on 2018-April-24, 19:30, said:

There have been a lot of other, better examples posted over the last decade where it should have counted 13 tricks but doesn't bid the grand. Here it really doesn't know anything about your rather crucial DJ which could easily not be there at all, be worthless in H, or leave you with a finesse in clubs.

I really don't mind an auto-5nt holding all keycards + trump Q if grand is in the realm of possibility even if north can't count it and won't bid it over any particular response, because sometimes the other hand has undisclosed extras/source of tricks, and is able to bid grand on that basis, which it wouldn't be able to do if the 4nt bidder just bid 6 since an ace might be missing. It's probably much easier to program it to always bid 5nt in these situations, rather than selectively do it, and I'd prefer that it always did it vs. randomly not do it.

But for counting 13 tricks and bidding 7, there have been many better examples.

the blurb says "all keycards but not necessarily extras". or something like that. also, i would have thought 4NT was slam invite in NT. maybe it changes when 6 card suit has been shown.

vrock
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-April-25, 06:39

View Postvirgosrock, on 2018-April-25, 04:42, said:

the blurb says "all keycards but not necessarily extras". or something like that. also, i would have thought 4NT was slam invite in NT. maybe it changes when 6 card suit has been shown.

vrock

There often isn't room for all information. But certainly confirming all KC would be nice. Some people ask for Kings to find 6N.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#5 User is offline   wbartley 

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Posted 2018-April-25, 09:37

The South hand is very narrowly defined here so the idea that South would bid the grand based merely on the fact that North expressed an interest in South's cheapest king is a bit far-fetched. Basically, I don't agree at all that the robot should bid 5NT as a matter of course. That very idea precludes responder from drawing an inference and bidding 7. There should be some possible response to 5NT that will draw a grand slam bid from the 5NT bidder or it should not be bid.
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#6 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2018-April-25, 10:17

I'm not saying South is supposed to bid the grand either on this hand. I'm saying that it's very, very hard to specify every specific sequence where North should NOT show all key cards by bidding 5nt. If I have to choose between North making specious 5nt bids showing all key cards but never bidding grand, vs. North trying to be selective about it, I'd much rather they program it so that it just always shows all key cards if 13 is plausible. Because there are hands that are absolutely dying to see if all key cards are held, but North grabbed blackwood first, and I absolutely don't want to be at the mercy of North using its judgment about whether or not to confirm all key cards are held.

You don't lose anything by having North make 5nt asks when neither or North nor South can bid the grand with confidence. You bid the small, so what, you took some extra bids, it was a waste of time, but you didn't mess up your result? At least by forcing North to always show all keycards, you don't miss the grands where the human can infer 13 tricks. If you want to make North be selective about it, a ton of hands will fall through the cracks in the rules, because it's just really hard to come up with enough rules to cover all auctions, and for the computer to figure out that on this auction it should show but this other one it shouldn't bother.
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-April-25, 10:26

View Postwbartley, on 2018-April-25, 09:37, said:

Basically, I don't agree at all that the robot should bid 5NT as a matter of course. That very idea precludes responder from drawing an inference and bidding 7. There should be some possible response to 5NT that will draw a grand slam bid from the 5NT bidder or it should not be bid.


I don't follow your logic here. If one is prepared to play that a King ask guarantees possession of all KeyCards (or even all KeyCards plus the Queen) then surely it makes sense to do so whenever the condition is met. This gives a very solid base for responder to draw inferences and (arguably more important) for the asker to investigate grand slam without undue risk. The problem is the opposite, that many players are not prepared to agree that a King ask promises all KeyCards, let alone all + Queen.
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#8 User is offline   wbartley 

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Posted 2018-April-25, 10:41

I stand corrected, assuming the king ask promises all key cards plus the queen of trumps. The explanation just says that it promises all the key cards. If it doesn't also promise the queen of trumps then it shouldn't be automatic.
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