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Handling Strong and Weak hands with Majors

Poll: Handling Strong and Weak hands with Majors (10 member(s) have cast votes)

Which is the best treatment?

  1. 2D=weak either major; 2C=strong either major (2 votes [20.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  2. 2C=hearts (weak or strong); 2D=spades (weak or strong) (7 votes [70.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 70.00%

  3. Some other assignment of these hands to 2C/2D (1 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

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#21 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2018-April-09, 06:56

So here’s a typical hand:

Kxx
xx
AQxx
xxxx

Partner opens 2 intermediate with a 6M. Do you pass? If so partner may hold:

AQJxxx
Axx
Jxx
x

Game is nearly cold in spades and you’re playing in two hearts. Opponents might be able to make 3 but this is not much compensation.

Okay so I guess you bid. This means you’re playing at least three hearts opposite:

Axx
AQxxxx
x
Jxx

Even three hearts is likely to fail (need to play hearts for one loser AND find a spot to park the third spade just to make three).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#22 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2018-April-09, 08:00

These intermediate 2M openings are very popular in Sweden. I've played them quite a lot myself (as 10-13) but I'm pretty neutral regarding them. I do like that opener shows extras when rebidding the major though. One pair I know do actually play 2D multi as 10-13 (also including strong NT I think), and 2M as the weak bid (not sure why, but I could ask). Another thing I've seen, which I like the idea of is 2D as weak hearts or intermediate spades, and that 2H shows intermediate hearts and 2S shows weak spades.

Not sure about the idea below, but could be an alternative:

2C = Strong hearts or intermediate spades.
2D = Strong spades or weak hearts.
2H = Intermediate hearts.
2S = Weak spades.

2C--
2D = Positive relay.
2H = Super-negative, passable.
2S = Passable, but GF vs strong hearts.
2NT+ = Not sure. Perhaps there's a way to preempt vs spades but also show some degree of hearts support?

2D--
2H = Pass/correct, could be very weak.
..Pass = Hearts.
..2S = Strong, not forcing.
..2NT+ = GF with spades.
2S = Positive relay. INV+ vs hearts.
2NT+ = Like above?
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#23 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2018-April-09, 08:06

View Postawm, on 2018-April-09, 06:56, said:

So here’s a typical hand:

Kxx
xx
AQxx
xxxx

Partner opens 2 intermediate with a 6M. Do you pass? If so partner may hold:

AQJxxx
Axx
Jxx
x

Game is nearly cold in spades and you’re playing in two hearts. Opponents might be able to make 3 but this is not much compensation.

Okay so I guess you bid. This means you’re playing at least three hearts opposite:

Axx
AQxxxx
x
Jxx

Even three hearts is likely to fail (need to play hearts for one loser AND find a spot to park the third spade just to make three).


A pair I know play a pretty strange version of major flash, but I think it solves many of the problems you describe. If I remember correctly, they play:

2D = 10-13 with spades, or weak with hearts.
2H = 10-13 with hearts, or 0-5 with spades.
2S = 6-9.

Over the 2H opening, they assume that opener has 10-13. So they pass all hands that would pass the intermediate version. They also use two types of relays:

2H--
2S = INV+ vs 10--13 hearts, but opener passes with the weak spade hand.
2NT = INV+ vs weak spade hand (GF vs hearts).
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#24 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2018-April-09, 12:13

On a slightly different note, did you have any response structure in mind over 1M?
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#25 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2018-April-10, 03:34

View Postawm, on 2018-April-09, 06:56, said:

So here’s a typical hand:

Kxx
xx
AQxx
xxxx

Yes, problem hands (both theoretical and practical) tend to contain

* 3S2H
* less than invitational strength
* enough strength that playing 2 on a non-fit will likely be disastrous.

But anyone can check (using e.g. Dealer) that a LoTT-based approach will work on the vast majority of hands.
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#26 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2018-April-16, 09:03

View Postawm, on 2018-April-08, 02:37, said:

I'm not sure how sims would help me much. People seem to think that:

2M = 9-13
2 = 3-8 either major

is better than

2M = 3-8
2 = 9-13 either major

considering that the former structure is pretty commonly played where multi is allowed and I've never seen the latter. There were also some claims to this effect on a discussion on bridgewinners, with the problem being that we might need to look for slam opposite the 9-13 hand and this is easier when you know the major right off (especially if the slam strain is responder's suit). And the 9-13 range is probably more common, especially in 2nd seat after a pass.

I agree that when playing "flag bids" it's even less clear. Is there a particular reason combining the strong+intermediate would be better (besides ACBL charts)?


2M bid gives better preemption on the weak hands.
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