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Continuations after a reverse

#21 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-March-13, 17:19

View PostVampyr, on 2018-March-13, 09:06, said:

I'm not sure you should pass even then. Partner is unlimited and could have game in his own hand. But then, I would not respond with less than five or six HCP unless I have something interesting like support for partners opening suit or a five card major etc.


Unless they are playing a system where 1 level opening is unlimited, pd is limited.
He is limited with 17-22. Therefore you can pass if you believe even a 22 count would not make a good play in game.(in practice almost everyone opens 2 with 22)
You may ask "then why respond at the first place?" Answer is easy - You may hold a hand that would improve a lot had you found a fit, and for the rest you were willing to bail out once you believe you improved the contract.

An example:

JTxxx
xxxx
xxxx
Void

1--1
2 red--pass
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#22 User is offline   dave_beer 

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Posted 2018-March-13, 20:29

Playing Ingberman 2NT rebid is neutral and usually denies 5-card suit. Responder can bid game after bidding 2NT but can't usually offer choice of games*. Opener's only forcing rebid below 3NT is 3. With the actual hand I rebid 3. I can't rebid 3 since there is no safety if aren't an adequate trump suit.

As described Reverse Lebensohl doesn't seem like a good structure. It presumably allows you to stop in 2 but it loses all of the other shape information that both partners might give using Ingberman or Lebensohl.

* You could play that 3 after 2NT offers choice between 3NT and 4 but that might be a hand willing to play 4-3 fit.
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#23 User is offline   hansen50 

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Posted 2018-April-02, 10:50

View PostTramticket, on 2018-March-12, 09:06, said:



You are a bit thin to reverse, but decide to upgrade based on the good holding in partner's suit.

Traditional Methods
Say you treat the reverse as a one-round force and play traditional continuations - so you need to bid the 4th suit or jump to create a strong continuation. On the East hand above you presumably bid a non-forcing 2NT now. What do you bid next as west? Do you bid 3? And is it non-forcing?

Ingberman
Let us now suppose that you play 2NT as Ingberman (or Lebernsohl) as described here, presumably you also bid 2NT as East - a relay with a minimum strength hand? West rebids 3, as requested and East bids what? 3 false preference? 3 - a likely 4-3 fit? Whichever East chooses (3/3) would you now bid 3 as West? And is that forcing?

Reverse Lebensohl
As a final thought, it has been suggested that we could play "Reverse Lebensohl" in this situation - i.e. all strong hand bid 2NT and three level bids are non-forcing. Is this playable? Does anyone have experience of this method?

Thanks

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#24 User is offline   hansen50 

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Posted 2018-April-02, 10:56

I play reverse relay, which means next possible bid is signoff, which in this case is 2S, and now next possible bid, 2NT shows weak reverse, and GF is off the table
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#25 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2018-April-02, 12:47

View Postnullve, on 2018-March-12, 15:41, said:

Qxxxx
Jxx
x
xxxx

Partner: 1
You: ?

Suppose you respond 1.

Partner: 2
You: ?

I like to play that rebidding the major is non forcing and shows therefor a hand not worth forcing to game opposite a reverse.
Of course with a fit opener will usually still raise, but you can stop at the two -level without a fit and below game otherwise.
Weak hands with less than 5 cards in the major use Ingbergman, but if the major is then rebid at the three level, the message is cancelled. Responder is forcing to game with at least 6 cards in his major and no particular fit with openers suits.
With a very strong suit responder would not use Inbergman but jump rebid his major.
With a fit in openers suit and game forcing values, responder would first show the fit even when having more than 4 cards in his major. Opener is expected to show 3 card support for responders major next.
With the given hand above responder has a choice between passing a forcing sequence or rebidding his spades.

Rainer Herrmann
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#26 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2018-April-02, 13:19

View PostMrAce, on 2018-March-13, 17:19, said:

Unless they are playing a system where 1 level opening is unlimited, pd is limited.
He is limited with 17-22. Therefore you can pass if you believe even a 22 count would not make a good play in game.(in practice almost everyone opens 2 with 22)
You may ask "then why respond at the first place?" Answer is easy - You may hold a hand that would improve a lot had you found a fit, and for the rest you were willing to bail out once you believe you improved the contract.

An example:

JTxxx
xxxx
xxxx
Void

1--1
2 red--pass

Openers have been known to fake a reverse with a strong hand and excellent spade support (even 4 card support).
Still pass maybe percentage

Rainer Herrmann
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#27 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2018-April-02, 17:08

View Posteagles123, on 2018-March-12, 09:57, said:

yes it's forcing, but i just think it's probably the percentage action

i mean if we have game meh we're non vul at least :P


Jeff Goldmsith has the interesting take that even if passing a forcing bid is right on the hand infront of you, the lasting effect on the partnership means its not worth it: Partner may in the future decide to take more extreme action for fear of you passing a forcing bid.
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#28 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2018-April-02, 18:33

View PostCthulhu D, on 2018-April-02, 17:08, said:

Jeff Goldmsith has the interesting take that even if passing a forcing bid is right on the hand infront of you, the lasting effect on the partnership means its not worth it: Partner may in the future decide to take more extreme action for fear of you passing a forcing bid.


Kit Woolsey has taken the opposing position. His general point was that partner should trust you to do what you believe is the percentage action given the available information, even if it goes against systemic agreements. If partner can't do that, then they are probably not the right partner.

Of course, the underlying premise is that you should be doing whatever works for the partnership in the long run.

OTOH, I don't think this is the right hand to pass with - you have a normal response so there is no reason to suspect partner can't cater for it.
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