BBO Discussion Forums: Continuations after a reverse - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Continuations after a reverse

#1 User is offline   Tramticket 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 876
  • Joined: 2009-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent (Near London)

Posted 2018-March-12, 09:06



You are a bit thin to reverse, but decide to upgrade based on the good holding in partner's suit.

Traditional Methods
Say you treat the reverse as a one-round force and play traditional continuations - so you need to bid the 4th suit or jump to create a strong continuation. On the East hand above you presumably bid a non-forcing 2NT now. What do you bid next as west? Do you bid 3? And is it non-forcing?

Ingberman
Let us now suppose that you play 2NT as Ingberman (or Lebernsohl) as described here, presumably you also bid 2NT as East - a relay with a minimum strength hand? West rebids 3, as requested and East bids what? 3 false preference? 3 - a likely 4-3 fit? Whichever East chooses (3/3) would you now bid 3 as West? And is that forcing?

Reverse Lebensohl
As a final thought, it has been suggested that we could play "Reverse Lebensohl" in this situation - i.e. all strong hand bid 2NT and three level bids are non-forcing. Is this playable? Does anyone have experience of this method?

Thanks
1

#2 User is offline   eagles123 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,591
  • Joined: 2011-June-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK Near London
  • Interests:Crystal Palace

Posted 2018-March-12, 09:20

I think i'd pass 2H as East
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
0

#3 User is offline   Tramticket 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 876
  • Joined: 2009-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent (Near London)

Posted 2018-March-12, 09:39

View Posteagles123, on 2018-March-12, 09:20, said:

I think i'd pass 2H as East


You don't play this as 100% forcing?
0

#4 User is offline   eagles123 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,591
  • Joined: 2011-June-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK Near London
  • Interests:Crystal Palace

Posted 2018-March-12, 09:57

yes it's forcing, but i just think it's probably the percentage action

i mean if we have game meh we're non vul at least :P
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
0

#5 User is offline   Tramticket 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 876
  • Joined: 2009-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent (Near London)

Posted 2018-March-12, 10:22

View Posteagles123, on 2018-March-12, 09:57, said:

yes it's forcing, but i just think it's probably the percentage action

i mean if we have game meh we're non vul at least :P


Ok fair enough. I don't mind partners "taking a view" - as long as they know that they are making an anti-system call. I'm not sure I would do it on this deal though.
0

#6 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,571
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2018-March-12, 11:49

West hand isn't worth a reverse unless East has 5 . I would raise to 2 if this is passed will be best spot.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

#7 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,326
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2018-March-12, 14:26

View PostTramticket, on 2018-March-12, 09:06, said:


You are a bit thin to reverse, but decide to upgrade based on the good holding in partner's suit.
Traditional Methods
Say you treat the reverse as a one-round force and play traditional continuations - so you need to bid the 4th suit or jump to create a strong continuation. On the East hand above you presumably bid a non-forcing 2NT now. What do you bid next as west? Do you bid 3? And is it non-forcing?
Ingberman
Let us now suppose that you play 2NT as Ingberman (or Lebernsohl) as described here, presumably you also bid 2NT as East - a relay with a minimum strength hand? West rebids 3, as requested and East bids what? 3 false preference? 3 - a likely 4-3 fit? Whichever East chooses (3/3) would you now bid 3 as West? And is that forcing?
Reverse Lebensohl
As a final thought, it has been suggested that we could play "Reverse Lebensohl" in this situation - i.e. all strong hand bid 2NT and three level bids are non-forcing. Is this playable? Does anyone have experience of this method?

IMO
  • Tramticket seems right that the fit makes the West hand worth a reverse. Awkward on these hands :(
  • A reverse is at least F1.
  • After a reverse, I like Normal Lebensohl. Here 2N would puppet 3 and then 3 is non-forcing. 2 (and 2 if available) would also be non-forcing. But tramticket's Reverse Lebensohl seems better.

0

#8 User is offline   nullve 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,000
  • Joined: 2014-April-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway
  • Interests:partscores

Posted 2018-March-12, 15:41

Qxxxx
Jxx
x
xxxx

Partner: 1
You: ?

Suppose you respond 1.

Partner: 2
You: ?
0

#9 User is offline   0deary 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 91
  • Joined: 2017-December-22
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-March-12, 15:43

East can’t support West in H because our long suit will lose control by repeated club forces, and similarly West wants to hold low spades for cheap ruffing, and we can’t afford to “waste” such high spades (ironically a bad and not good feature) so either needs to pass ASAP. Some use 2N as forcing in which case East should pass the 2H (but avert from partners face for 3 minutes), but if 2N is weak and can pass then West tables the green card I think. (I’m not competent to comment on the other treatments, but thank you TT- it was interesting to look at Professor Ingbermans work)
0

#10 User is offline   kuhchung 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 632
  • Joined: 2010-August-03

Posted 2018-March-12, 16:27

Answering #2 because #1 is too hard and that's why #2 exists

No don't break the relay. Partner has told you he's weak and you are as minimum as you can get. Why break it?

As east, I would just drop in 3D after the relay. We could still be in the 6-2, and the 5-2 plays better than a 4-3. West should obviously pass 3D - he doesn't know east only has 2 diamonds.
Videos of the worst bridge player ever playing bridge:
https://www.youtube....hungPlaysBridge
0

#11 User is offline   neilkaz 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,465
  • Joined: 2006-June-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Barrington IL USA
  • Interests:Backgammon, Bridge, Hockey

Posted 2018-March-12, 20:18

View Postnullve, on 2018-March-12, 15:41, said:

Qxxxx
Jxx
x
xxxx

Partner: 1
You: ?

Suppose you respond 1.

Partner: 2
You: ?


If you psych a response with that garbage 3 count, yeah, I think you have to pass the reverse. I pass the first time with this junk when playing 2/1 or S.A.
0

#12 User is offline   MrAce 

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,944
  • Joined: 2009-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 2018-March-13, 02:02

View Postneilkaz, on 2018-March-12, 20:18, said:

If you psych a response with that garbage 3 count, yeah, I think you have to pass the reverse. I pass the first time with this junk when playing 2/1 or S.A.


What he wrote is a genuine hand to respond. I do not think there will be a single player among top players who would pass this hand that you call garbage.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"





0

#13 User is offline   MrAce 

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,944
  • Joined: 2009-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 2018-March-13, 02:07

Quote

Reverse Lebensohl
As a final thought, it has been suggested that we could play "Reverse Lebensohl" in this situation - i.e. all strong hand bid 2NT and three level bids are non-forcing. Is this playable? Does anyone have experience of this method?

Thanks


Yes I played it, it is playable and considering the hands we have no fit ends up usually in 3 NT, not letting the weak hand grab the NT is a good thing in many cases. However, it makes it more difficult with the hands that has fit, due to having to go through 2 NT.
Overall I like normal lebensohl.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"





0

#14 User is offline   MrAce 

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,944
  • Joined: 2009-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 2018-March-13, 02:10

View Posteagles123, on 2018-March-12, 09:20, said:

I think i'd pass 2H as East


You should pass if you did not have a real respond values previous round. But you do have. You are not giving pd less than his minimum expectations of your first bid so I would never pass with this.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"





0

#15 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,155
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-March-13, 09:06

View PostMrAce, on 2018-March-13, 02:10, said:

You should pass if you did not have a real respond values previous round. But you do have. You are not giving pd less than his minimum expectations of your first bid so I would never pass with this.


I’m not sure you should pass even then. Partner is unlimited and could have game in his own hand. But then, I would not respond with less than five or six HCP unless I have something interesting like support for partners opening suit or a five card major etc.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#16 User is offline   miamijd 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 386
  • Joined: 2015-November-14

Posted 2018-March-13, 10:23

"Standard expert" today is probably cheaper of fourth suit or 2NT as negative. But a really good treatment is cheaper of fourth suit or 2NT as good-bad (that is, negative if responder follows by bidding 3 of opener's minor or passing 3 of opener's minor if that's what opener rebids, and better than GF otherwise).

I'm with several others here. I would bid 2NT and then correct 3C to 3D or pass a 3D bid (which opener will make if he has no club tolerance).

Cheers,
Mike
0

#17 User is offline   maartenxq 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 76
  • Joined: 2013-January-21

Posted 2018-March-13, 10:31

I think the problem of this hand is not so much a question of what conventions to play, but more a case of a bad reverse timing. Would have the same 'mistake' btw. In my view 3 after 2 nt is 100 % forcing, even slammish, so we will reach 3 nt or 4 in which contracts partner can show his world class declarer play.

Maarten Baltussen
0

#18 User is offline   nekthen 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 301
  • Joined: 2008-September-21

Posted 2018-March-13, 11:20

Playing lebensohl style, I would bid 2, which I regard as weak without a long minor. A direct 3 is GF and 2N 3 is invitational
0

#19 User is offline   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,213
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2018-March-13, 12:36

Playing Ingberman/leb, and accepting the W hand as worth a reverse (which I agree with):


1D 1S
2H 2NT
3C 3D
P

I would cal this the "straight arrow" sequence. Nothing clever. Maybe W is 6/4. If not, you are in a 5-2 fit and there is no reason to think anywhere else is better. As to the 3C call, sure I hope partner is not passing 3C but unless I have extra values and a longer than shown suit I am simply bidding 3C. If partner has six of them it might be the last makeable contract.

The main thing is that I see no reason, in either hand, for anyone to get inventive.
Ken
0

#20 User is offline   GrahamJson 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 474
  • Joined: 2014-October-11

Posted 2018-March-13, 12:39

Mike Lawrence spends a long chapter on reverses in his “Tips on Bidding”. He recommends using the cheaper of the 4th suit or 2NT to show a weak hand. Also responder should give priority to rebidding a 5 card major. Using his methods the bidding would therefore continue 2NT - 3C -3D - Pass. Opener would not be tempted to continue to 3S as responder has more or less denied a five card spade suit.
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users