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Is 3♦ an invite or is it forcing?
Would 3♣
better describe East's hand which was AQxx,Jx,KQJxx,xx?
Thank you
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Forcing or an invited? 2/1 ACBL
#1
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Posted 2018-March-09, 09:38
Is 3♦ an invite or is it forcing?
Would 3♣
better describe East's hand which was AQxx,Jx,KQJxx,xx?
Thank you
#2
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Posted 2018-March-09, 09:50
In the Acol world, it isn't forcing.
But the question is of academic interest only, since I would bid on anyway with the West hand.
3♦ looks fine with the East hand, opposite a partner who has shown a minimum strength opening.
But the question is of academic interest only, since I would bid on anyway with the West hand.
3♦ looks fine with the East hand, opposite a partner who has shown a minimum strength opening.
#3
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Posted 2018-March-09, 10:35
3♦ is invitational .
3♣ is the call E should have taken.
With W hand I would make another move even vs invitation. Knowing pd has 4+ diamonds, more likely 5, improved W hand by A LOT!
3♣ is the call E should have taken.
With W hand I would make another move even vs invitation. Knowing pd has 4+ diamonds, more likely 5, improved W hand by A LOT!
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#4
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Posted 2018-March-09, 10:50
MrAce, on 2018-March-09, 10:35, said:
3♦ is invitational .
3♣ is the call E should have taken.
With W hand I would make another move even vs invitation. Knowing pd has 4+ diamonds, more likely 5, improved W hand by A LOT!
3♣ is the call E should have taken.
With W hand I would make another move even vs invitation. Knowing pd has 4+ diamonds, more likely 5, improved W hand by A LOT!
Yes and yes! I've had this discussion with more than a few PD's after failing to bid games that we should. Does east want to be in game after PD opens? I answer yes, so he must not just make an invitation that can be passed.
#5
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Posted 2018-March-09, 14:28
If our hand was more balanced, doubling and 3♦ would be a good option and also be forcing.
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#6
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Posted 2018-March-09, 14:44
I agree with the 3 ♦ invitational, 3 ♣ forcing folks.
East should realize that West is highly likely to have a 4+ card ♦ suit. East was unable to raise ♠ so likely doesn't have 4 ♠. The hands where East would be unable to do so besides hands with 4+ ♦ would be 3=4=3=3 hands where West chose to open 1 ♦ instead of 1 ♣. And if you are playing Support Doubles the likelihood of that hand is even less. So the extraordinary trump support and shortness in suits opener is likely to have length in are all positive.
I'd rate East's hand at the top end of a minimum opening bid, so with an opener opposite, I think you need to make a forcing bid versus an invitational bid.
West should also like his/her hand better after the 3 ♦ invitational raise. With East showing a fit and holding at least 8+ cards in the pointed suits, it looks like East has no more than 5 cards in the rounded suits providing some shortness afford the opportunity to ruff some of West's losers.
East should realize that West is highly likely to have a 4+ card ♦ suit. East was unable to raise ♠ so likely doesn't have 4 ♠. The hands where East would be unable to do so besides hands with 4+ ♦ would be 3=4=3=3 hands where West chose to open 1 ♦ instead of 1 ♣. And if you are playing Support Doubles the likelihood of that hand is even less. So the extraordinary trump support and shortness in suits opener is likely to have length in are all positive.
I'd rate East's hand at the top end of a minimum opening bid, so with an opener opposite, I think you need to make a forcing bid versus an invitational bid.
West should also like his/her hand better after the 3 ♦ invitational raise. With East showing a fit and holding at least 8+ cards in the pointed suits, it looks like East has no more than 5 cards in the rounded suits providing some shortness afford the opportunity to ruff some of West's losers.
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Posted 2018-March-09, 15:03
MrAce, on 2018-March-09, 10:35, said:
3♦ is invitational .
3♣ is the call E should have taken.
With W hand I would make another move even vs invitation. Knowing pd has 4+ diamonds, more likely 5, improved W hand by A LOT!
3♣ is the call E should have taken.
With W hand I would make another move even vs invitation. Knowing pd has 4+ diamonds, more likely 5, improved W hand by A LOT!
Yes, I also agree with 3C from East - missed that.
#10
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Posted 2018-March-10, 02:14
3D forcing? The strong family are 3C, 3NT, 3H, X, 2NT so 3D is the weak end similar to 2S/H, just above P, so not forcing
East’s better bid? 3C is normal and safe sides the NT contract, or does it? I’m now a bit worried for 3NT- double for an unusual lead (S) so after taking the KS south attacks the S/Hs, with the AD entry to come, so -1, and I’d be rueing my 1D bid...
East’s better bid? 3C is normal and safe sides the NT contract, or does it? I’m now a bit worried for 3NT- double for an unusual lead (S) so after taking the KS south attacks the S/Hs, with the AD entry to come, so -1, and I’d be rueing my 1D bid...
#11
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Posted 2018-March-10, 02:15
As W, playing SAYC, I would pass, when E then opens 1D and gets the 2C overcall, the W hand revalues to a solid 5D bid and that would end it.
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Posted 2018-March-10, 04:08
dickiegera, on 2018-March-09, 09:38, said:
Is 3♦ an invite or is it forcing?
Would 3♣
better describe East's hand which was AQxx,Jx,KQJxx,xx?
Thank you
Holding only 11 pts I wouldn't open the West hand at all. It should be remembered that when you
bid a suit,you are not only proposing it as trumps but also suggesting it as a lead to
your partner should you become defenders. It follows, therefore you should hold decent cards in it.
The diamond suit shown is far too threadbare for a light opener imho
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Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)
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by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)
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#13
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Posted 2018-March-10, 04:36
Hi,
absent add. agreements, 3D is inv., but if you want, you could use something like a 2NT Good-Bad
structure to differentiate, which would make 3D forcing.
If 3D is NF or if East hast some douts about the forcing nature, he has to go via 3C, in the end
he is interested in a club stopper, 3C asks, so 3C may well be the best bid.
With kind regards
Marlowe
absent add. agreements, 3D is inv., but if you want, you could use something like a 2NT Good-Bad
structure to differentiate, which would make 3D forcing.
If 3D is NF or if East hast some douts about the forcing nature, he has to go via 3C, in the end
he is interested in a club stopper, 3C asks, so 3C may well be the best bid.
With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#14
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Posted 2018-March-10, 14:05
2D would be merely competitive and 3C is forcing and strongly suggests diamond support. Therefore, 3D is encouraging/invitational, but non-forcing.
Holding AQxx, Jx, KQJxx, xx as responder, one has game forcing values with a known diamond fit. Thus a bid of 3D does not adequately reflect the values of the hand and the forcing bid of 3C (which strongly suggests diamond support) is mandatory.
Holding AQxx, Jx, KQJxx, xx as responder, one has game forcing values with a known diamond fit. Thus a bid of 3D does not adequately reflect the values of the hand and the forcing bid of 3C (which strongly suggests diamond support) is mandatory.
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Posted 2018-March-11, 19:59
PhilG007, on 2018-March-10, 04:08, said:
Holding only 11 pts I wouldn't open the West hand at all. It should be remembered that when you
bid a suit,you are not only proposing it as trumps but also suggesting it as a lead to
your partner should you become defenders. It follows, therefore you should hold decent cards in it.
The diamond suit shown is far too threadbare for a light opener imho
bid a suit,you are not only proposing it as trumps but also suggesting it as a lead to
your partner should you become defenders. It follows, therefore you should hold decent cards in it.
The diamond suit shown is far too threadbare for a light opener imho
My view differs from the above. Yes, you have only 11 hcp, but they are a good 11 hcp, and you also have a useful void. So I do like the idea of opening this hand, and the only bid that makes sense is 1♦.
To follow with the rest, I do not consider 3♦ forcing, and would not make that call. Given that this was made, I certainly would go further, likely 5♦, as a suit fit has been found, so the hand improves greatly.
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