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Written Bidding The verdict

#21 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-March-11, 11:48

View PostVampyr, on 2018-March-10, 19:12, said:

View Postbarmar, on 2018-March-10, 10:17, said:

Don't electronic scoring devices like BridgeMate have similar limitations?


No. They run on batteries.


Tablets run on batteries too :)
But typically it will be opportune to charge them after every session, whereas a Bridgemate Pro can run for 300 hours on AAA cells.
Unitek has a 10-tablet charger to make life easier.
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#22 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2018-March-11, 14:41

View Postpescetom, on 2018-March-11, 11:48, said:

Tablets run on batteries too :)
But typically it will be opportune to charge them after every session, whereas a Bridgemate Pro can run for 300 hours on AAA cells.
Unitek has a 10-tablet charger to make life easier.


Still doesn’t help if the bridge club does not have its own premises, or WiFi.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#23 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-March-13, 00:10

View PostVampyr, on 2018-March-11, 14:41, said:

Still doesn’t help if the bridge club does not have its own premises, or WiFi.

Why do you need your own premises to charge the tablets? Like I said, we don't have our own premises and we use tablets for scoring. The director takes them home and charges them. And for WiFi you use a cheap, portable router.

A dozen android tablets takes much less space than a set of boards. Not to mention the Duplimate machine.

#24 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2018-March-13, 08:57

View Postbarmar, on 2018-March-13, 00:10, said:

Why do you need your own premises to charge the tablets? Like I said, we don't have our own premises and we use tablets for scoring. The director takes them home and charges them. And for WiFi you use a cheap, portable router.

A dozen android tablets takes much less space than a set of boards. Not to mention the Duplimate machine.


The person responsible for charging the tablets would have to show up for every session. At our North London club, the person in charge of the duplicate has to carry boards and the computer on the bus, and has to take a bus to drop off the prepared boards and the computer at someone else’s house if he is not showing up. I doubt that anyone would volunteer to take home 18 tablets, charge them, and make sure they arrive at the club. Having “the director” do it would not work, since no one directs more than about once very two months.

Bidding boxes and Bridgemates can stay in the cupboard, since nothing has to be done with them.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#25 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-March-13, 09:25

View Postlamford, on 2018-March-09, 03:56, said:

"the bids should remain in place until the opening lead is faced but this app hides them after 3 passes" was one review. If that is the case, the designers should have consulted some bridge players first.

After 3 passes the app shows the final contract (e.g. four hearts by north, doubled) and offers a button "Review Bidding" which exposes the entire bidding sequence again if required - doesn't see such a bad choice to me, given that this free version only handles bidding, nothing else. I see there was supposed to be a Pro version that handles score keeping too, but I've not seen that if it exists. I mentioned this app just as an example of a good real world interface and because I like the approach of only offering legal choices (not permitting infractions such as insufficient bids or bids out of turn, etc.).


The question about how closely Law 41 is followed in each country intrigues me, but is even more off topic :)
I'll start a new topic to explore that.
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#26 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2018-March-13, 21:34

I am not sure that an interface that prevents illegal calls is permitted by the laws.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#27 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2018-March-14, 01:30

View PostVampyr, on 2018-March-13, 21:34, said:

I am not sure that an interface that prevents illegal calls is permitted by the laws.

I'm not sure that it isn't. Which law do you think prevents it? Law 18F seems to allow it.
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#28 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-March-14, 08:35

View PostVampyr, on 2018-March-13, 08:57, said:

The person responsible for charging the tablets would have to show up for every session. At our North London club, the person in charge of the duplicate has to carry boards and the computer on the bus, and has to take a bus to drop off the prepared boards and the computer at someone else’s house if he is not showing up. I doubt that anyone would volunteer to take home 18 tablets, charge them, and make sure they arrive at the club. Having “the director” do it would not work, since no one directs more than about once very two months.

Bidding boxes and Bridgemates can stay in the cupboard, since nothing has to be done with them.

Obviously having premises makes things easier, but it's not hard to accomodate other conditions. Our club has one director who directs almost all our games (we just have one session/week). And our games are small (6-8 tables), so we only have 10 tablets for her to carry in her backpack with the computer. The more games you have in your club, the more likely I'd expect you to have premises where you can store and charge equipment.

#29 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-March-14, 08:38

View PostVampyr, on 2018-March-13, 21:34, said:

I am not sure that an interface that prevents illegal calls is permitted by the laws.

The Laws provide a rectification for the irregularity, but that's not the same thing as requiring that the irregularity be allowed. It's simply an accomodation for something that can't be prevented in traditional bidding processes.

It's like saying that speeding fines mean that car makers can't produce cars that don't allow you to go over the speed limit (there might be other reasons why this is a bad idea, like emergencies, but that doesn't carry over to bridge).

#30 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-March-14, 15:59

View Postbarmar, on 2018-March-14, 08:38, said:

It's like saying that speeding fines mean that car makers can't produce cars that don't allow you to go over the speed limit (there might be other reasons why this is a bad idea, like emergencies, but that doesn't carry over to bridge).

Or in other words, if car makers made cars that will not break the speed limit then the law makers would be happy.

There are many reasons to be concerned about the move towards on-line play and control of play, but one of the few certain benefits is inherent enforcement of many laws and regulations.
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#31 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-March-14, 16:25

I can certainly see that there is scope for using different writing styles to convey different meanings, and that it could be both done and pick-up subconsciously. For example, it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that forcing passes tend to be written with a shorter line than nonforcing passes.

You have the same issue with bidding boxes (a forcing pass being played more delicately than a nonforcing pass) but it may be more feasible to educate players to use a consistent style using bidding boxes: this is because everybody has their own writing style. More so than they have their own handling-bidding-cards style.

On the other hand, at least the bidding pads provide a record of such style issues. You don't need to install cameras to investigate such abuses.

As I've said in other thread I much prefer bidding pads (except for the paper waste issue) but I admit that it is possible that the UI issues are bigger than with boxes.
IMPs is probably a better format when everyone's drinking --- Vampyr
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#32 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2018-March-14, 18:17

View Postbarmar, on 2018-March-14, 08:35, said:

Obviously having premises makes things easier, but it's not hard to accomodate other conditions. Our club has one director who directs almost all our games (we just have one session/week). And our games are small (6-8 tables), so we only have 10 tablets for her to carry in her backpack with the computer. The more games you have in your club, the more likely I'd expect you to have premises where you can store and charge equipment.


We have only one session per week too, but we have more tables, usually 16-17. But we don’t have anybody who directs frequently, and the person who carries the computer also carries the cards, so cannot be asked to carry more. There are some people who are there most weeks, but what do you do if no one volunteers to take the tablets home and charge them? This person who directs almost all your games, i’m Guessing she gets paid, so can be expected to do a lot more than in an ordinary club.
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#33 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-March-16, 07:50

View Posthelene_t, on 2018-March-14, 16:25, said:

I can certainly see that there is scope for using different writing styles to convey different meanings, and that it could be both done and pick-up subconsciously. For example, it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that forcing passes tend to be written with a shorter line than nonforcing passes.

LOL, how many typical players even know about the concept of forcing passes? I would hope that the more advanced players, who understand this concept, would also be more careful in their bidding.

Maybe a better example would be takeout vs. penalty doubles.

#34 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-March-16, 08:02

View Postbarmar, on 2018-March-16, 07:50, said:

Maybe a better example would be takeout vs. penalty doubles.


"Double" and "DOUBLE", with "DBL" being lead-directing?
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#35 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2018-March-16, 16:17

View Postbarmar, on 2018-March-16, 07:50, said:

LOL, how many typical players even know about the concept of forcing passes? I would hope that the more advanced players, who understand this concept, would also be more careful in their bidding.


Right, because op players never cheat...

View Postpescetom, on 2018-March-16, 08:02, said:

"Double" and "DOUBLE", with "DBL" being lead-directing?


Double is written as X.
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#36 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-March-16, 16:34

View PostVampyr, on 2018-March-16, 16:17, said:

Double is written as X.

X vs X

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