BBO Discussion Forums: Written Bidding - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Written Bidding The verdict

#1 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,221
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-March-07, 10:42

Well, I now have experience with written bidding, and have a good grasp of the advantages and disadvantages of this method..

Con: I don’t know whether this was more specific to the Gold Coast Congress, but it seems logical that the tables would need to be pretty low so everyone can see the top of the bidding pad, which is about five or 6 in.² and sits in the middle of the table. Bending down really low when you have to make a call or alert a call of partner’s totally does your back in. Also it is a colossal waste of paper.

Pro: Rarely, if ever, is the record of the bidding removed before the opening lead is faced. But the chief advantage is the enhancement to your methods. For example, suppose partner has opened 1, and you are playing Bergen raises. 3 is your lower raise, and 3 your higher. What you can do is write the 3 on the bidding pad, then have another look at your hand, have a little think, and then write the D for . This is the only example we witnessed, but further applications that spring immediately to mind are Drury, transfer responses after takeout doubles... the list goes on.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#2 User is offline   sfi 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,406
  • Joined: 2009-May-18
  • Location:Oz

Posted 2018-March-07, 17:30

I'm pretty sure their tables were too low - something strange was definitely going on with them. About half of my opponents, including a world champion, were regularly flashing me their cards. It was so common I stopped even reminding people and just dealt with it. From memory, we even reminded your partner when we played against you, and he's hardly the sort of person to not be conscious of how to avoid doing that. My theory is that a bunch of people are used to hiding their cards under the edge of the table, but it didn't work on those.

Usually the paper waste is only half as bad - most bidding pads can be used on both sides. But waste is one of the most frequently cited reasons for not wanting to use them.

It's unusual to see the more egregious forms of "enhancement" anymore. For instance, competitive bids can be shown by putting a period after it, while invitational ones leave it off. My experience suggests these are subconscious, although I may be naive.
0

#3 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,437
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2018-March-07, 20:20

IMO players should enter their calls into a bridge-mate or tablet, which would display the entire auction.

This would combine the advantage of bidding-boxes and written bidding without unnecessary equipment costs. It would prevent illegal calls and provide timing records to help resolve tempo disputes.


It could easily be extended to the play as well, with similar advantages (e.g. no need for physical cards).


Those who appreciate the social aspects of the game could still enjoy a face-to-face environment.
0

#4 User is offline   ahydra 

  • AQT92 AQ --- QJ6532
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,607
  • Joined: 2009-September-09
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-March-08, 00:17

We use written bidding in NZ and I absolutely hate it to be quite honest. There seem to be a lot of cases where people can't read bids, not least when I tried to do vugraph operating :( Also, when alerting you tend to get in the way of your RHO who wants to write his call at the same time you want to circle partner's call. Possibilities for cheating are endless: size of writing, full stop or not, asking partner because you "can't read his bid" or not, whether your pass is a forward slash or a backslash, ...

And yes, it wastes paper like crazy. Some clubs have two-sided pads which helps a bit, but our club only uses one-sided bidding pads and probably burns through 3000+ sheets a week. I really hope the paper is recycled!

It does have one big advantage though, which is maintaining a record of the bidding in case of a dispute or TD call. Nige's tablet idea would also offer that, of course. I can believe that Bridge+More and similar systems are the future - physical cards (I feel the game would lose too much charm without these), but electronic bidding, an automatic record of the play, and no having to prepare multiple sets of boards (the machine deals the cards at the table).

ahydra
0

#5 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,084
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2018-March-08, 07:40

View Postnige1, on 2018-March-07, 20:20, said:

IMO players should enter their calls into a bridge-mate or tablet, which would display the entire auction.

This would combine the advantage of bidding-boxes and written bidding without unnecessary equipment costs. It would prevent illegal calls and provide timing records to help resolve tempo disputes.


There's a free Android app called 'Bridge Bidding Box': one tablet can handle all four players, it's a no-brainer to use and the graphics are excellent.
I've tried to convince people to try it, but they just smile quizzically and reach for the "real" bidding box.
0

#6 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,084
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2018-March-08, 07:56

View Postahydra, on 2018-March-08, 00:17, said:

physical cards (I feel the game would lose too much charm without these), but electronic bidding, an automatic record of the play, and no having to prepare multiple sets of boards (the machine deals the cards at the table).


Given the advances in flexible plastic substrate screens it should be quite feasible in a few years to have "smart cards" at a reasonable price. Instead of a machine dealing the cards, you just pick up any 13 cards and wait until the "deal" appears in your hand. The look and feel would be quite similar to real playing cards, but all need to keep score would disappear. Being intelligently controlled the cards could of course do interesting things like suggest a play in a teaching environment, turn blank if you attempt to play out of turn or not follow suit, etc.
Best of both worlds, IMO :)
1

#7 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 17,818
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-March-08, 09:47

View Postpescetom, on 2018-March-08, 07:40, said:

There's a free Android app called 'Bridge Bidding Box': one tablet can handle all four players, it's a no-brainer to use and the graphics are excellent.
I've tried to convince people to try it, but they just smile quizzically and reach for the "real" bidding box.

Maybe they should get together with the Bridge Tab folks, which is a scoring app for Android tablets.

#8 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,084
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2018-March-08, 10:03

View Postbarmar, on 2018-March-08, 09:47, said:

Maybe they should get together with the Bridge Tab folks, which is a scoring app for Android tablets.

I've not seen either Bridge Tab or BridgePad (of which I have read glowing reports from UK).
But I have seen BriAn, and the interface there is not at the same level as Bridge Bidding Box.
Unfortunately it's hard to protect the IPR of a good graphic interface, so full scoring apps can always take a look.
0

#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,221
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-March-08, 21:12

View Postahydra, on 2018-March-08, 00:17, said:

We use written bidding in NZ and I absolutely hate it to be quite honest. There seem to be a lot of cases where people can't read bids, not least when I tried to do vugraph operating :( Also, when alerting you tend to get in the way of your RHO who wants to write his call at the same time you want to circle partner's call. Possibilities for cheating are endless: size of writing, full stop or not, asking partner because you "can't read his bid" or not, whether your pass is a forward slash or a backslash, ...


Yes, I remember the hand clashing bit. As for cheating with the pads, there are any number of ways. I do not agree with sIf that the full stop or not could possibly be subconscious, but in any case I would be very uncomfortable if the oppponents were entering calls in varied ways, but after all, who writes something exactly the same way every time? Loads of things, even things that are subconscious could develop and be picked up by partner, also subconsciously.

Quote

And yes, it wastes paper like crazy. Some clubs have two-sided pads which helps a bit, but our club only uses one-sided bidding pads and probably burns through 3000+ sheets a week. I really hope the paper is recycled!


When I was there the sheets were thrown in wastebaskets. I do not think that they were recycled, especially since other waste found its way into,the same baskets. Of course two-sided pads are not the answer, since 1500 sheets/week isn’t one club is still a shocking waste!


Quote

It does have one big advantage though, which is maintaining a record of the bidding in case of a dispute or TD call. Nige's tablet idea would also offer that, of course. I can believe that Bridge+More and similar systems are the future - physical cards (I feel the game would lose too much charm without these), but electronic bidding, an automatic record of the play, and no having to prepare multiple sets of boards (the machine deals the cards at the table).


I don’t know about all this, but certainly a written bidding device with an attached stylus and a menu of possible calls, similar to online bidding, would be trivial to design and build. Probably it would have to allow calls out of turn and insufficient bids.

Most director calls that have to do with the auction are made when the cards are still on the table anyway. With the possible exception of places like the USA where the bidding cards are removed from the table immediately after the final pass.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#10 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,007
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-March-09, 01:37

View PostVampyr, on 2018-March-08, 21:12, said:

Most directors that have to do,with the auction are made when the cards are still on the table anyway. With the possible exception of places like the USA where the bidding cards are removed from the table immediately after the final pass.

Don't those places include most of the world apart from the small bit you and I inhabit?
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#11 User is offline   lamford 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,467
  • Joined: 2007-October-15

Posted 2018-March-09, 03:56

View Postpescetom, on 2018-March-08, 07:40, said:

There's a free Android app called 'Bridge Bidding Box': one tablet can handle all four players, it's a no-brainer to use and the graphics are excellent.
I've tried to convince people to try it, but they just smile quizzically and reach for the "real" bidding box.

"the bids should remain in place until the opening lead is faced but this app hides them after 3 passes" was one review. If that is the case, the designers should have consulted some bridge players first.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason. - barmar
0

#12 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,221
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-March-09, 07:12

View Postgordontd, on 2018-March-09, 01:37, said:

Don't those places include most of the world apart from the small bit you and I inhabit?


Is it? I have played in maybe 15 countries but donít recall this to be the case. Perhaps I have simply not noticed; in the USA they will do,things like refuse to lead and shriek at you to put away your bidding cards. I have sometimes taken an evil pleasure in asking the cards to be replaced when I have questions about the auction.

Anyway, Gordon, if you are correct then I am once again grateful to live in a place where proper procedure is followed.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#13 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,221
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-March-09, 07:17

View Postlamford, on 2018-March-09, 03:56, said:

"the bids should remain in place until the opening lead is faced but this app hides them after 3 passes" was one review. If that is the case, the designers should have consulted some bridge players first.


Iím not sure an app is such a great idea. You are requiring stationary pairs to have a smartphone and to run the app. They must remember to bring it, have the app installed because the venue might not have Wi-fi, it must be charged, etc but mostly a phone screen is smaller than a bidding pad, and I think that the latter was about at the limit of what everyone could reach to use, and see.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#14 User is offline   sfi 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,406
  • Joined: 2009-May-18
  • Location:Oz

Posted 2018-March-09, 08:29

View PostVampyr, on 2018-March-08, 21:12, said:

I do not agree with sIf that the full stop or not could possibly be subconscious, but in any case I would be very uncomfortable if the oppponents were entering calls in varied ways, but after all, who writes something exactly the same way every time?


I picked the fullstop example because it is a particularly well-known one. New players do use it subconsciously and people will (nicely) point it out during their first session or two. In my experience, they look embarrassed and don't do it again. Anyone more experienced will be quickly reminded that it is not a proper way to bid and would expect the director to be involved the second time.

Others that would be quickly called out are variations in the direction of the slash to signal pass or significant size differences in the bids.

You are right that people vary the way they write. For instance, I recently noticed that my "S" is different when writing 1S compared to 2S. The first is thinner - they tend to match the accompanying numerals. I think I've been doing it for years without picking up on it. Another example: I recently started playing with someone who makes quite a small "x" to double, but noticed in the first session that it was consistent - just a quirk.

But it's a pretty poor way to cheat IMO - there is a written record of it after all if someone wants to start analysing trends.
0

#15 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,084
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2018-March-09, 12:17

View PostVampyr, on 2018-March-09, 07:17, said:

I’m not sure an app is such a great idea. You are requiring stationary pairs to have a smartphone and to run the app. They must remember to bring it, have the app installed because the venue might not have Wi-fi, it must be charged, etc but mostly a phone screen is smaller than a bidding pad, and I think that the latter was about at the limit of what everyone could reach to use, and see.


Like with BridgePad or BridgeTab, the only practical solution is for the club to own and maintain (charge, update etc) tablets, one per table plus spares - phones are too small, and nobody is happy to use their own stuff. But a tablet owned by the club works fine and the controlling system only needs wifi, not even internet. A decent router costs about $50 and a refurbished tablet not much more.
0

#16 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,285
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2018-March-09, 19:15

View PostVampyr, on 2018-March-08, 21:12, said:

With the possible exception of places like the USA where the bidding cards are removed from the table immediately after the final pass.

And sometimes before it.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#17 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,662
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hamilton, New Zealand

Posted 2018-March-10, 02:56

In Christchurch (NZ) they use tablets for entering the scores. I am not sure why they don't use them as bidding pads also, then.
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
0

#18 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,221
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-March-10, 06:03

View Posthelene_t, on 2018-March-10, 02:56, said:

In Christchurch (NZ) they use tablets for entering the scores. I am not sure why they don't use them as bidding pads also, then.


Tablets are of course not the panacea some believe. Many clubs donít have their own premises, so even simple things like charging the devices could be a problem. Also they cannot be used with screens.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#19 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 17,818
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-March-10, 10:17

View PostVampyr, on 2018-March-10, 06:03, said:

Tablets are of course not the panacea some believe. Many clubs donít have their own premises, so even simple things like charging the devices could be a problem. Also they cannot be used with screens.

Don't electronic scoring devices like BridgeMate have similar limitations?

BTW, our club recently started using tablets for scoring, and we don't have our own premises. The director brings them in the backpack that also has the laptop for running ACBLScore. We have the advantage of playing in a college, so we can use their WiFi, but routers are not very big, either (I think Apple has AirPort routers that are the size of a power brick). Tablets stack flat and don't take much space.

#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,221
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-March-10, 19:12

View Postbarmar, on 2018-March-10, 10:17, said:

Don't electronic scoring devices like BridgeMate have similar limitations?


No. They run on batteries.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users