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Delayed ruffing

#1 User is offline   A2003 

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Posted 2018-March-05, 21:52

Delayed ruffing
GIB is consistently doing this and allowing the declarer to make the contract.
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#2 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2018-March-05, 22:14

GIB's play relies heavily on simulating what hands you might hold. You've shown a balanced hand, 24 HCP, 2 or 5 keycards, the king of hearts, and the queen of spades. The only part of that which was truthful was the balanced hand, and most of the rest was completely impossible. I'm not surprised it led to some rather unusual outcomes.

Crazy bidding (like opening 2 with nothing) will certainly get you some good results with GIB opponents, but usually is going to lead your partner astray more than anyone.
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#3 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2018-March-06, 01:37

That's fair enough but there should be a backup system somewhere. East knows who has the ace of hearts, no need to simulate anything. :)
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-March-06, 11:00

View Postsmerriman, on 2018-March-05, 22:14, said:

Crazy bidding (like opening 2 with nothing) will certainly get you some good results with GIB opponents, but usually is going to lead your partner astray more than anyone.

While A2003 doesn't have his bid he is pretty close.
It is very common for Gib or humans to be off on their bidding much more than A2003 was here.


That said it should be noted if Gib ruffs at the first opportunity declarer will make. This means defenders have a chance to show 2 cards before a ruff is needed. West play 6 and 10, i believe completely random cards. If the cards played meant something Gib wouldn't have to randomly deal 1000's of hands they would probably have the right info to beat the contract.
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#5 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-March-06, 12:14

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-March-06, 11:00, said:

That said it should be noted if Gib ruffs at the first opportunity declarer will make.

Not sure I understand you here, surely that's what we are talking about? If Gib (East) ruffs the J (his first opportunity) and plays the A then declarer is down, or so it looks.
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#6 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-March-06, 20:45

View Postpescetom, on 2018-March-06, 12:14, said:

Not sure I understand you here, surely that's what we are talking about? If Gib (East) ruffs the J (his first opportunity) and plays the A then declarer is down, or so it looks.

sorry you're right. i misread the double dummy analysis there is a card that lets him make but it isn't a ruff.

But my point is still valid that carding that was meaningful or at least non-random could help the determine what declarer has.

Also, someone not having exactly their bid shouldn't mean tricks are just thrown away.
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#7 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2018-March-06, 21:40

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-March-06, 20:45, said:

ould help the determine what declarer has.
Also, someone not having exactly their bid shouldn't mean tricks are just thrown away.

Agreed. I'm just not sure how GIB is designed to handle it. Past threads have shown it's clearly not capable of assuming slight variations are acceptable, and here it's massive variations (aces, kings, queens, and points all wrong).

I agree with your surmise in another thread that there are some fundamental bugs in how GIB works. I doubt we'll see a change there though.
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#8 User is offline   jammen 

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Posted 2018-March-07, 16:34

Gib likes to keep it's high trump until the last card is played. Maybe it just changed it's mind halfway through the hand.
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#9 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2018-March-07, 19:05

View Postsmerriman, on 2018-March-06, 21:40, said:

Agreed. I'm just not sure how GIB is designed to handle it. Past threads have shown it's clearly not capable of assuming slight variations are acceptable, and here it's massive variations (aces, kings, queens, and points all wrong).

I agree with your surmise in another thread that there are some fundamental bugs in how GIB works. I doubt we'll see a change there though.


Transfer the Q to South and South has 24 HCP and East wouldn't know the difference. I can't see why the point count should make any difference at this point of play. Whatever South has or has not shown, every key card has been played or is held by East. I am flabbergasted that GIB would have any problems simulating and analyzing the remaining hands. Wrong key card response? Sure, but surely the new simulations should take into account the key cards already played??? B-) Showed K with 6 bid? Sure, but dummy has K with 100% surety. What kind of simulator wouldn't make that adjustment? Showed Q? Sure, but East knows they have that card with 100% surety. What kind of simulator wouldn't make that adjustment???

Apparently the kind of simulator that doesn't make that adjustment is GIB :( :( :(
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#10 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2018-March-10, 14:08

I think the point is that when Gib is "at a loss" as to what's going on, it keeps on playing low cards/ducks stuff. That's what I kind of see in various threads.
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