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Possible slam hand, how to respond to opener?

#1 User is offline   kereru67 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 09:24

Dealer N, N-S vul.

N opens 1, S has:

9
A6
AKQT
K97654

Bidding system is 5 card majors so 1 might be a 3-card suit. Playing RKCB. What is S's best response, and what is the intended continuation over N's likely rebids?
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#2 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 09:34


I rank
1. 4N = RKC. At this vulnerability, interference might hamper more sedate auctions. Would prefer a more economical Ace ask like MinorWood.
2. 3 = SPL?
3. 6 = PRE.
4. 2 = NAT. Inverted (As recommended by Cyberyeti. Originally, I missed this out).
5. 1 = NAT.
6. 2 = NAT.

This post has been edited by nige1: 2018-March-02, 10:40

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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 09:43

2 inverted, no problem yet, second choice whichever of 4/ asks aces, if I have to bid 4N I won't do this, third choice I suspect you can bid 3, I can't it would be a void.
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 10:59

If playing SAYC you have no forcing raise. Improvement 2 forcing raise in clubs. 1-3=gf on
Hand is good enough KC would work but may be to high as nigel said
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#5 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 12:03

My bid is 2 game force, followed by 3 setting the trump suit. I would take a chance that the opponents are not going to intervene as if partner opens 1 with a minimum no-trump sort of hand he's likely to have 4-3 or even 4-4 in the majors.
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#6 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 12:41

If you're playing Minorwood, then 4 Minorwood would be right. This hand has no suit where there are 2 apparent losers, so KC asking would be right when you get the chance.

If you don't play Minorwood, or by agreement a direct 4 isn't Minorwood, then you have to make a forcing bid. If you play Strong Jump Shifts, then 2 would be right. If you don't play SJSs, then either an Inverted Minor raise or even a simple 1 should be bid.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 12:55

View Postrmnka447, on 2018-March-02, 12:41, said:

If you're playing Minorwood, then 4 Minorwood would be right. This hand has no suit where there are 2 apparent losers, so KC asking would be right when you get the chance.

If you don't play Minorwood, or by agreement a direct 4 isn't Minorwood, then you have to make a forcing bid. If you play Strong Jump Shifts, then 2 would be right. If you don't play SJSs, then either an Inverted Minor raise or even a simple 1 should be bid.


2 can get you into trouble if you play SJSs, you will have to make sure you do the asking because partner may assume he has one more discard than he actually has on your non existant 5th diamond.
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#8 User is offline   kereru67 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 13:08

My actual bid was 2, reply was 2. This is where I went wrong bidding 4NT instead of 3 to set the trump suit.
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#9 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 20:29

View Postkereru67, on 2018-March-02, 13:08, said:

My actual bid was 2, reply was 2. This is where I went wrong bidding 4NT instead of 3 to set the trump suit.


SJSs take up so much bidding room that it becomes very difficult if not impossible to find a fit in a 3rd or 4th suit. So, a SJS usually implies --

- a big hand where slam is possible if opener holds the right cards, and,
- the contract will be in opener's suit, responder's suit, or no trump.

So, yes, responder's rebid defines the type of hand it is and a rebid would be normal to set trump.

With this hand I'd strongly consider not rebidding 3 , but rebidding 4 which would show not only a fit but extraordinary trump support (5+ good trumps).
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#10 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 20:52

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-March-02, 12:55, said:

2 can get you into trouble if you play SJSs, you will have to make sure you do the asking because partner may assume he has one more discard than he actually has on your non existant 5th diamond.


Which hand will be the master hand that you will set up in a contract? Likely, it will be responder's hand, not opener's hand. What you need are honors in the trump suit and cards to cover responder's major losers. So, yes, you want to be asking the questions, to find that out, but shouldn't be worried too much about opener expecting a 5th diamond for an additional pitch.

A jump rebid in by responder after the SJS, if possible, shows extraordinary trump support and should get opener thinking along the right lines.
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#11 User is offline   kereru67 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 21:22

An immediate response of 4NT might work (although I usually hate it when partners do that to me). The problem here was when I bid 4NT he assumed would be trumps and responded 5 to show one A, KQ. I bid 7 and went 1 down after A lead. 6 was a laydown.
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#12 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-March-03, 00:41

Best response: 1D slow slow (a 4-4 D fit won’t hurt a 6-3 C slam {by 1C-3S} but if N have Jxx in Cs both minor slams are doomed so I need to explore)

Likely continuation: 1C-1D-1M-4th suit force- typically now shows 4423 13 points-(I hate to say it but) 3NT. But if it went 1C-1D-2D-then cue so as to ask N if had C control
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#13 User is offline   fourdad 

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Posted 2018-March-03, 02:28

unless you and pd play weak opening bids of 11 HCP, I would be a strong fan of "the one who knows, GOES" on this type of hand. I value the S hand at 20 total points. Any weaker action might allow opps to interfere and 6C is the most descriptive bid, IMNTBHO.
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#14 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-March-03, 04:14

View Postkereru67, on 2018-March-02, 21:22, said:

An immediate response of 4NT might work (although I usually hate it when partners do that to me). The problem here was when I bid 4NT he assumed would be trumps and responded 5 to show one A, KQ. I bid 7 and went 1 down after A lead. 6 was a laydown.


I thought the standard rule was a SJS followed by blackwood was setting the SJS suit as trumps.

You can actually play the next bid after a SJS in 2 ways, standard I think is unless you bid partner's suit next, it's the single suited monster, we do the reverse, unless you rebid your suit or bid NT it's assumed to be the fit type. Over say 1-2, 2N by opener shows < stiff Q in partner's suit, which means partner can distinguish between a suit playable in a slam opposite a small singleton by bidding 3 and one that isn't (3N) and also has the knowledge that AJ10xx is way better than KQJxx if he has the fit type. We play weak NT so we don't need 2N for the weak NT. The corrollary is that if you bid say 3 you are showing at least Q or xx in spades.

Also we wouldn't SJS with diamonds and hearts so blackwood in hearts is vanishingly unlikely, if it's the big hand it's single suited.
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#15 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-March-03, 07:34

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-March-02, 09:43, said:

2 inverted, no problem yet, second choice whichever of 4/ asks aces, if I have to bid 4N I won't do this

My preferences are close but in the opposite order, maybe because we don't play inverted minor and do play a jump raise to 4m as forcing.
First choice is 4 which invites opener to control-bid, among other benefits this will immediately show/deny K and or control.
Second choice is 4 which fixes trumps in clubs and asks Keycards.
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#16 User is offline   Left2Right 

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Posted 2018-March-03, 08:43

If there's one thing this game rewards, it's patience: don't jump the gun with immediate key card asking.

Step 1. The Splinter. Inform partner that you do hold a possible slam complement in clubs and do not have four heart cards. Partner will most likely take it from there.

Step 2. Kickback by your partner. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it so far (so many top players use it).

Your patience will pay a differing big dividend depending on partner's vision of the two hands.

1. A x x K Q x x x x x Q J x
Partner may try to sign off in 3NT with such a mangy balanced minimum, but your 4 continuation will inform him that you have a slam opposite such a minimum but are staring at a Blackwood No-no (the lack of either the queen or jack of trump). Partner is better able to know to get to 6 and not 6NT because of the spade situation you informed him of.

Four clubs as Minorwood does have this built in problem of not being able to insist on clubs without violating the Blackwood No-no rule.

2. A K J x K x J x A Q x x x
Here, your splinter is gorgeous and partner envisions his hand being master; thus, 5 club tricks, a diamond ace, ace and king of hearts, two top spades and two spade ruffs. He will employ the RKCB continuation (See SSA) to inquire about an extra diamond control. And yes, SSA is easily adapted to Kickback. Seven easily bid.

With so many other possible opener hands, you can see how important it is not to take control on the first round of the auction.
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#17 User is offline   RD350LC 

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Posted 2018-March-03, 10:05

View PostFelicityR, on 2018-March-02, 12:03, said:

My bid is 2 game force, followed by 3 setting the trump suit. I would take a chance that the opponents are not going to intervene as if partner opens 1 with a minimum no-trump sort of hand he's likely to have 4-3 or even 4-4 in the majors.

This is what I was thinking. Playing strong jump shifts (useful at IMPs), a jump shift either states that you have a self sufficient suit, or have strong support for partner's opening suit.
I have seen players open 1 club on a singleton-but I won't play with such players.
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#18 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-March-03, 16:42

View PostLeft2Right, on 2018-March-03, 08:43, said:

If there's one thing this game rewards, it's patience: don't jump the gun with immediate key card asking.

There are times to be patient and times to seize the moment (carpe diem).
This seems to me one of the latter: you are empowered to decide, you only really need to know about controls, and low-level minuets are just begging the non-vulnerable opponents to interfere in the majors.

View PostLeft2Right, on 2018-March-03, 08:43, said:

Step 1. The Splinter. Inform partner that you do hold a possible slam complement in clubs and do not have four heart cards. Partner will most likely take it from there.

It is not that common to play Splinters over a minor opening and there may be good reasons. In this case you sacrifice a useful way of showing long spades, the opponents gain an opportunity to double for lead or to interfere, if North takes the initiative then good luck about him figuring out your KQT in diamonds.



View PostLeft2Right, on 2018-March-03, 08:43, said:

Step 2. Kickback by your partner. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it so far (so many top players use it).

@Cyberyeti and I both mentioned Kickback or equivalents (4 by South), although I think control-bidding is even better.
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#19 User is offline   igt3 

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Posted 2018-March-04, 09:27

Why not just bid 1 and take it from there?
Give partner KQxx,Jxx,Jxx,AQx and there is no slam after a heart lead.
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#20 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2018-March-06, 10:42

Several possibilities based on style.

1. 3 splinter. In my world these are played about 75% of the time. I'd probably bid 4 over 3N. If partner has most of their hand in spades, making any game much less slam could be a challenge.

2. 2 SJS. Then spades to show my shortness / club support.

3. Inverted 2 then spades to show shortness, or I will bid diamonds to keep things moving forward.

This will be a difficult hand to bid if I start with 1
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