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Bidding problem

#1 User is offline   StevenG 

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Posted 2018-March-01, 16:45


MPs. 3 weak. What now?
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#2 User is online   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-March-01, 17:39

MP's? back it up and open 1nt
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-March-01, 17:46

Dbl now, nothing else fits. Against a jump overcall this is not a support double but just shows extra values and no sensible alternative.

But I would have opened 1NT.
So there is someone who is more pedantic than I am. Good to know ;) --- Blackshoe
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#4 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-March-01, 17:47

Pass for me. There isn't a suitable call to make other than Double, and that's definitely a no-go at teams, as for pairs it looks hideous too.

As for the opening of 1, with this 2236 I prefer a 1NT opening showing strength on your first bid. it's always going to get tricky opening 1 and the opponents pre-empt (and raise) in any of the higher-ranking suits.
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#5 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2018-March-01, 18:21

View PostStevenG, on 2018-March-01, 16:45, said:


MPs. 3 weak. What now?

A 1N opener would have worked better but over RHO's 3, I rank
  • Double = T/O. Dangerous and Imperfect. The wrong holding but passing seems overly passive.
  • Pass = NAT. Win the post mortem.

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#6 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2018-March-01, 20:12

4c

I bid where I live. p has maybe 2 dia at most (hopefully less) so 3n looks like a REALLY tiny target. 4c leaves 4c 5c 4h as all viable landing spots (slam anyone?). Dbl has some good things but ODR (offense to defense ratio) strongly favors bidding vs attempting to penalize and even if construed as TOX and extra values how much confidence will you have if partner bids hearts some more?. Over 4c we should be quite happy to pass knowing about the extra length promised. PASS seems just soooooo wimpy with such a good club suit and our hand is soooooo much better than a minimum the 3d bid might hamstring partner into passing when we have a game. 4c will rarely result in us getting hammered so the risk factor is pretty low.
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#7 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2018-March-01, 21:35

Seems like the modern trend is to open 1NT on all 13-17s regardless of shape, lol. This hand has too much in prime cards and that lovely suit to open 1NT imho. (Also hate opening it with 2-2 in majors because partner can't use weak stayman or be guaranteed a fit with a nice 5-5 MM)

Double's the best of bad worlds here. Our AQ of hearts is pretty handy in case we end up playing 4H on a 5-2 fit, which seems the most likely outcome. If partner bids 3S, we try 4C and hopefully he gets the point.

Alternatively, against some opps you can bid 3NT and they won't lead a diamond because you've supposedly promised a stopper :)

ahydra
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#8 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 02:31

Pass

-You canít bid beyond 3NT until youíve explored it, (and you canít now)

-X now is penalty, (otherwise opponents can just bid on any old rubbish and partner is forcing to take out to what could be quite unsuitable places),

-If you ainít got a bid then pass (partner is still there- and by the way pass isnít absolutely forcing for the same reason that double shouldnít be take out now, in my view)

On that basis itís between a ďsafeĒ +100/300/500 Double (in 3D*minus whatever) and a possible +600/+620 or just +130 (in our 3N, 4H, 4C)

The vulnerability suggests try for game so pass. If partner passed it out weíve not missed much, and weíll just have to try to beat our +130 in 4C with their 3 off for +150 in 3D, for 20 and an imp. (PS if it was match points Iíd want to think about it further....)
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#9 User is offline   StevenG 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 03:25

I should have said - but I didn't think it relevant - that we, as do 95%+ of the field play Acol, 4cM, 12-14 NT, so 1NT opener not in consideration.
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 03:45

View PostStevenG, on 2018-March-02, 03:25, said:

I should have said - but I didn't think it relevant - that we, as do 95%+ of the field play Acol, 4cM, 12-14 NT, so 1NT opener not in consideration.


It's also not in consideration because the hand is way too good for 1N, 7.5 playing tricks is way too many for a 15-17.
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#11 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 04:00

View PostStevenG, on 2018-March-02, 03:25, said:

I should have said - but I didn't think it relevant - that we, as do 95%+ of the field play Acol, 4cM, 12-14 NT, so 1NT opener not in consideration.


It is relevant and does make things easier. Support doubles etc. don't really apply in a weak NT context. The double of (say) a 2 intervention is better used to show a 15+ balanced hand without a stop. The double over 3 shows essentially the same hand. Note that there is not the implication that you hold a four-card major when you double - with four spades you would either open 1 or hold an unbalanced hand and plan to rebid spades.

Given this context I double :)

(If I were playing a strong NT I would be inclined to bid 4 - but what do I know about strong NT?).
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 08:33

View PostTramticket, on 2018-March-02, 04:00, said:

It is relevant and does make things easier. Support doubles etc. don't really apply in a weak NT context. The double of (say) a 2 intervention is better used to show a 15+ balanced hand without a stop. The double over 3 shows essentially the same hand. Note that there is not the implication that you hold a four-card major when you double - with four spades you would either open 1 or hold an unbalanced hand and plan to rebid spades.

Given this context I double :)

(If I were playing a strong NT I would be inclined to bid 4 - but what do I know about strong NT?).


Not necessarily, we play 4M but open the minor with 4M4m strong notrump, and play the double as exactly 4 cards in the unbid suit with bidding it showing 5.
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#13 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 09:05

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-March-02, 08:33, said:

Not necessarily, we play 4M but open the minor with 4M4m strong notrump, and play the double as exactly 4 cards in the unbid suit with bidding it showing 5.


Interesting. I'm guessing that without the interference, you were about to show your balanced, strong NT hand be rebidding 1NT (or probably 2NT as this is worth much more than a superficial 16)? And you would have used some form of check-back to find a major suit fit? I prefer to also show the balanced shape immediately after interference. But it is easier for us, because we would open a major before a minor.
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#14 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 09:45

I canít say that I see the problem. Whatever double means (support, take out, penalties), you donít have it. You canít raise partner or bid NT. You are also too good to pass, well at least I think you are, so you rebid your excellent six card suit. So 4C it is. Sure, it may not lead to the best contract, but then that is why players pre-empt.
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#15 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 09:46

View PostTramticket, on 2018-March-02, 09:05, said:

Interesting. I'm guessing that without the interference, you were about to show your balanced, strong NT hand be rebidding 1NT (or probably 2NT as this is worth much more than a superficial 16)? And you would have used some form of check-back to find a major suit fit? I prefer to also show the balanced shape immediately after interference. But it is easier for us, because we would open a major before a minor.


We play the 1N rebid as 15-bad 19 with Crowhurst so I might well have shown it as 17-bad 19 balanced with 5 clubs
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#16 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 11:57

View PostGrahamJson, on 2018-March-02, 09:45, said:

Whatever double means (support, take out, penalties), you donít have it.


If those are the only options, I agree.

But as I have already suggested, it is quite common in a Weak NT / Four Card Major structure to play a double as showing values (i.e. a strong NT type hand).
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#17 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 14:02

I don't think it matters what your system is - double needs to include this hand as a possibility. When you have a good hand with no major suit fit, 3NT should always be the default choice for game until proven otherwise. Here, there is no other way to alert partner to this possibility, so double must be the bid.

Partner should understand that the auction is jammed and not be too dogmatic about thinking you have four spades, three hearts, or whatever other shape you would promise for a double over 2D interference.
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#18 User is offline   StevenG 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 14:22

So, on this hand, what do I do if I double and partner bids spades?
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#19 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 14:44

View PostStevenG, on 2018-March-02, 14:22, said:

So, on this hand, what do I do if I double and partner bids spades?


Bid clubs. If partner has both spades and a diamond stopper, too bad - you've taken your best shot to get to your best game. Partner should picture a hand of about this strength with good clubs.
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#20 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-March-02, 14:45

View PostStevenG, on 2018-March-02, 14:22, said:

So, on this hand, what do I do if I double and partner bids spades?


Since partner bid 3S, instead of 3NT, he doesn't have a diamond stop. Bid 4C now. You were prepared to bid 4C anyway and it has cost you nothing to have investigated 3NT first.
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