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Options? Choose One

#21 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 08:22

I'll spoil the fun here. The hand was played by an ad-hoc partnership. One played 2/1, the other did not. "Genuine expert level game" means JEC match, with NS JEC and Lauria, but EW were two forumers playing together for the first time.

#22 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 09:29

View PostTramticket, on 2018-February-27, 04:12, said:

This is nonsense of course.

(1) The double is not for penalty. How can you have a hand that was not worth a 2 bid on the last round and is now worth a penalty double of the opponents' hearts?
(2) Even if, in some strange world, you played the double as penalty the implication that you are calling partner a liar if you pull their penalty double is ridiculous. You said something similar here and I let it pass. Doubling for penalties should be based on cooperation, not a one-sided decision by one partner. If you never allow your partner to pull a penalty double (and use terms like "liar" and "reading the riot act" in the process), your double will need to be rock solid and you will never make enough penalty doubles.


Many moons ago as a novice I took lessons from a very famous bridge player and author Hugh Kelsey He was asked how can you tell when a double
is for take out and when for penalties? I will never forget his reply "You can never muddle the two doubles. A double is always for takeout
when partner has not previously bid However if partner HAS already bid then any subsequent double is for penalties" In the OP West has opened the
bidding and,since East has responded,West's double of 2 MUST be for business. It is so, it cannot be otherwise
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster

Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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#23 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 10:13

View PostPhilG007, on 2018-February-27, 09:29, said:

Many moons ago as a novice I took lessons from a very famous bridge player and author Hugh Kelsey He was asked how can you tell when a double
is for take out and when for penalties? I will never forget his reply "You can never muddle the two doubles. A double is always for takeout
when partner has not previously bid However if partner HAS already bid then any subsequent double is for penalties" In the OP West has opened the
bidding and,since East has responded,West's double of 2 MUST be for business. It is so, it cannot be otherwise


Maybe that was true 50 years ago, but I doubt it. It certainly wasn't true in the U.S. I'm also willing to say that your comment isn't true anywhere at this time.

Kelsey is a bridge God. Sadly, man is fallible, and oft times misinterprets God's word.

True, there once was a time, in the Dark Ages before negative doubles, when essentially all doubles were for penalties. Now, I can think of only two situations where low level doubles are for business. This isn't one of them.

Hint: if everyone else, including some excellent players, are treating this double as takeout, it's probably you who is in a "muddle".
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#24 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 10:14

I must admit that I cannot imagine any hand with which you would pass over 1NT but would double 2H. Having said that, the double must be for take out so I’ll take it out into my longest suit. So 3D it is. Now I anticipate that we will be told that the doubler holds Axxxx KQJ xx Axx and intended the double to be cooperative; pass with some defence, take out with offence.

Whatever the result, I’ll ask partner not to put me under pressure like this again.
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#25 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 10:35

I'm bidding 2 . It'll force opponents to 3 level if they want to compete further and keeps our level as low as possible on a part score hand.
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#26 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 14:28

Philg007 go play in the other forums please. I removed your last two posts.

Remember this is supposed to be the expert class bridge. It's fine if non-experts post with a disclaimer that they're not experts, but trollish hijacking like what you've been posting here is too much.

#27 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 14:49

Another non-expert reply. I think of it this way. Surely when partner made his X, which I think is surely for take-out, he was prepared to hear me bid 3D. As 3D bids go, AQxxx looks pretty good. If he does not want me bidding 3D with this, he should not have made that X.
Ken
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#28 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 14:51

View Postdiana_eva, on 2018-February-27, 08:22, said:

I'll spoil the fun here. The hand was played by an ad-hoc partnership. One played 2/1, the other did not. "Genuine expert level game" means JEC match, with NS JEC and Lauria, but EW were two forumers playing together for the first time.

Could you please spoil a bit more by giving opener’s hand? As I (obviously) don’t know how to look’for the records of that match! Thx😃
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#29 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 15:09

View Postapollo1201, on 2018-February-27, 14:51, said:

Could you please spoil a bit more by giving opener's hand? As I (obviously) don't know how to look'for the records of that match! Thx😃


Here it is. Sorry OP, I didn't mean to step over your thread, but everyone tended to assume EW knew what they were doing because of the stated conditions (genuine expert level game) when in reality they had a pretty hard time to figure out each other's style during the match:




#30 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 15:54

View Postdiana_eva, on 2018-February-27, 15:09, said:

Here it is. Sorry OP, I didn't mean to step over your thread, but everyone tended to assume EW knew what they were doing because of the stated conditions (genuine expert level game) when in reality they had a pretty hard time to figure out each other's style during the match:





Exactly as the hand should have been. 14 HCP 5233. Can't have had much of anything else, really. Maybe a great 13 or a bad 15 with the same shape.

Opener can't have 6 spades, 4 hearts, 4 diamonds, or 4 clubs, or he wouldn't have passed 1NT. So he is almost certainly 5332. And the doubleton pretty much has to be in hearts; otherwise, how can he make the reopening X? So opener should be 5233.

As for strength, opener is pretty much marked with 14 or thereabouts. With a good 15, if he chose to open 1S rather than 1NT (I would open 1NT, but not everyone would), he probably wouldn't pass at IMPs; responder could have 10 (and even if he has a great 8 or a 9 count, I've made a few games on 23-24 before, haven't you?). And if opener had a mediocre 13 or fewer, he probably would just go quietly and pass, since it's not at all certain that his side has the majority of the high cards.

But with 14 (maybe a great 13 or a bad 15) and 5233, it's probably worth it to risk a X. Maybe partner has a long minor. Maybe partner has a heart suit and can pass. Maybe partner has 9-10 HCP with heart stops and can bid 2NT. Who knows, but defending 2H is probably not the best spot.

Cheers,
Mike
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#31 User is offline   Caitlynne 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 17:17

Partner's double is CLEARLY for takeout, looking to not sell out to 2H. Partner cannot have heart length else s/he would have rebid 2H after 1NT.

You don't have enough length and strength in hearts (or values generally) to convert the double for penalties, so you need to look for an alternative. Fortunately you have a 5 card suit in one of the unbid suits.

The best bid 3D and this is absolutely unequivocally the highest percentage bid.

Bidding 2S is the only other sane bid, but it is far inferior. Returning to 2S on doubleton support is possible on this auction - and it can be attractive when holding Hx and no suit longer than 4 cards or a weak 5 card suit - but bidding 2S is inadvisable on a small doubleton in support when holding a decent quality 5+ card suit in one of the two unbid suits for which partner's double has promised support.

3D = 100 points
2S = 10 points
Anything else = 0 points
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#32 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 23:11

West has one fast defensive trick, one slow trick and possibly KS. In my view significantly weaker in defence to offer a penalty double to East. Could East really have ~4 tricks to knock the 2H? So West’s double must have been one of those “I know you will pass East but I know best so insist that you bid something!” So it’s off to the 3 level on quite possibly 20 points combined and no clear fit, I feel a wheel coming off soon! :)
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#33 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-February-28, 00:30

View Postdiana_eva, on 2018-February-27, 15:09, said:

Here it is. Sorry OP, I didn't mean to step over your thread, but everyone tended to assume EW knew what they were doing because of the stated conditions (genuine expert level game) when in reality they had a pretty hard time to figure out each other's style during the match:


I'm glad you've posted the whole hand. I was going to post West's hand today anyway. Am I right in saying that the final contract of 2X - East passed the double - does go down on a trump lead? The adage of leading your partner's suit didn't apply here.
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#34 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-February-28, 01:48

2H* always makes: just duck a C if a trump defence or ruff spades otherwise
Lovely hand- thank you!
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#35 User is offline   dtlq1 

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Posted 2018-February-28, 05:18

I think West has exactly the hand to be expected 14 and 5233. I would take x also definitely as take out, probably invitational for penalty at opposite vulnerability (*still would not accept the invite). With my hand as East I would have bid 2, clearly 2 card support, weak hand. - The most certain fit in is offset in my opinion due to higher level and not particular good shape. As it turned out both 2 and 3 are valid contracts. But then ops certainly will bid 3 and question is if this has to be doubled or not.
Also a good example how your suits do not split as good as could have...
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#36 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2018-February-28, 06:11

Whilst I agree that this double is for take out, I think many on BBO take the mantra that “all low level (I.e. less than four level) doubles are for take out a bit too literally. The rule I use with my regular partner is that low level doubles are for take out unless partner has shown or implied support for the doubled suit, or if a previous double was for penalties, or if a pass would be forcing or if it is the third round of bidding. By implying support I mean bidding NT or making a TOX or negative double of another suit. So, for example, (1H) - X - (1S) - X would show spades, not the unbid suits. Similarly 1D - (1S) - X - (2H) - X would show hearts.

The auction in the question would be an exception as clearly the doubler cannot have a penalty double, especially as he sits under, not over, the bidder.
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#37 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2018-February-28, 08:26

View PostGrahamJson, on 2018-February-28, 06:11, said:

Whilst I agree that this double is for take out, I think many on BBO take the mantra that “all low level (I.e. less than four level) doubles are for take out a bit too literally. The rule I use with my regular partner is that low level doubles are for take out unless partner has shown or implied support for the doubled suit, or if a previous double was for penalties, or if a pass would be forcing or if it is the third round of bidding. By implying support I mean bidding NT or making a TOX or negative double of another suit. So, for example, (1H) - X - (1S) - X would show spades, not the unbid suits. Similarly 1D - (1S) - X - (2H) - X would show hearts.

The auction in the question would be an exception as clearly the doubler cannot have a penalty double, especially as he sits under, not over, the bidder.


Quite right, although I have seen pairs play that 1m - X - 1M - X is still responsive. Not a common treatment.

The only other example that comes to mind of a low level X being unambiguously penalty is 1NT - X (Capp, natural, etc), although a very weak advancer has license to run.
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#38 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2018-February-28, 09:41

View Postdiana_eva, on 2018-February-27, 14:28, said:

Philg007 go play in the other forums please. I removed your last two posts. Remember this is supposed to be the expert class bridge. It's fine if non-experts post with a disclaimer that they're not experts, but trollish hijacking like what you've been posting here is too much.

Filtered on such criteria, the expert forum would be sparse :(
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#39 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-February-28, 10:36

View Post0deary, on 2018-February-28, 01:48, said:

2H* always makes: just duck a C if a trump defence or ruff spades otherwise
Lovely hand- thank you!


It is an interesting hand beyond the bidding. And you're right: 2X does make whatever defence East/West try. I missed the duck. Silly me!
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#40 User is offline   0ooops 

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Posted 2018-February-28, 10:50

:) just between you and me I had to check the analysis twice over as I suddenly had a horrible thought that A other D might wreck my entry...but all is well!
Your question also raised an interesting issue on penalty doubles: some use very direct assessment- how many defensive tricks (like mum taught) and others seem to use variety of proxy methods: how many cards in their (inferred) suit bid and an old one from Silver Bull with different but apparently equally robust proxy ideas....so I’ll do some more BBO research and then look out for a useful hand: I’m use to the room here so it would be my first posting there! Meanwhile thank you again for such a stimulating question :) x. 0deary. (0ooops old name)
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