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Options? Choose One

#1 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 04:10

I was watching a genuine level expert game on BBO a few days ago, and whilst the bidding for the games and slams is good to watch I actually prefer the part score struggles. This one had the added factor of being vulnerable against non-vulnerable. What is the best bid?



Edit: This is IMP teams. Further edit: 5 card majors
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#2 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 05:14

Partner never has a penalty double, it has to be for takeout.
He also should not be minimum with 5233. Probably 6133 with weakish s or 5134 or 5233 15count.

So my bid is 3

In my hand will contribute 1,5tricks with almost zero potential for more. Furthermore declarer will get tapped in and loose control
In my hand has potential for 4 tricks and we will not loose control, because we'll be ruffing in dummy, at least I hope so :)

The best trump suit quite often is the long suit of the weaker Hand.

regards
JW
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#3 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 05:18

Pd can't have 4 card since he passed 1 NT. he probably have 5233 shape and willing to compete, or willing to defend if we have hearts behind the overcaller.
I would bid 3. 2 is ok too I guess.
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"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#4 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 05:22

View PostJanisW, on 2018-February-26, 05:14, said:

. Probably 6133 with weakish s or 5134 or 5233 15count.



Pd can not have any of these shapes except 5233
OP said genuine expert game. Passing 1 NT would not even occur to an expert with 6331 or 5143.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"


"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#5 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 10:24

3d

xxxxxx A Kxx AKx
xxxxx A Kxxx AKx

are a couple of hand I would pass 1n with as opener (and be happy to reopen with x). I would bid 2c with the 2nd example if the minors were reversed and be hoping I did not hear 2s next.
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#6 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 11:14

View Postgszes, on 2018-February-26, 10:24, said:

3d

xxxxxx A Kxx AKx
xxxxx A Kxxx AKx

are a couple of hand I would pass 1n with as opener (and be happy to reopen with x). I would bid 2c with the 2nd example if the minors were reversed and be hoping I did not hear 2s next.


I would have thought that AK109X XX XXX AKX is just as likely. Bidding 2 looks reasonable and might often work out better than 3.

Is this IMPs or MPs?
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#7 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 12:19

View PostTramticket, on 2018-February-26, 11:14, said:

I would have thought that AK109X XX XXX AKX is just as likely. Bidding 2 looks reasonable and might often work out better than 3.

Is this IMPs or MPs?


IMP teams. My apologies for not listing this with the OP.
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#8 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 12:48

Partner cannot be 6133 so he must be 5431 - it is really doubtful he is 5233 with enough to double after his pass of 1NT and not opening 1NT originally. This would mean the opponents have found their 9-card heart fit, and we should hold at least an 8-card fit. I think the idea here is to find out if we have an 8 or 9-card diamond fit for further action, and I think the only way to do that is with a 2NT bid.

I think the question to answer here is what should we do over 3H, not 2H.
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#9 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 18:07

IMHO those who believe pd can have 5431 (any), should go to B/N forums and restart their bridge education,before deciding to hang around expert forum.

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-February-26, 12:48, said:

I think the question to answer here is what should we do over 3H, not 2H.



Nope, what to do over 3 is easy. You PASS!
Jesus! You have 7 count 5332 hand and pd passed 1 NT ffs! Are you planning to compete to 4 level or DBL a partscore with this shape and/or tricks?
People who spend too much time in D.T topic started to talk like him ffs! Posted Image
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"


"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#10 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 19:08

View PostMrAce, on 2018-February-26, 18:07, said:

IMHO those who believe pd can have 5431 (any), should go to B/N forums and restart their bridge education,before deciding to hang around expert forum.




Nope, what to do over 3 is easy. You PASS!
Jesus! You have 7 count 5332 hand and pd passed 1 NT ffs! Are you planning to compete to 4 level or DBL a partscore with this shape and/or tricks?
People who spend too much time in D.T topic started to talk like him ffs! Posted Image


Points, schmoints. :P If pard has 4 diamonds, there are 18 total tricks. :o
The clearest way to show what the rule of law means to us in everyday life is to recall what has happened when there is no rule of law.-Dwight Eisenhower
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#11 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 22:35

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-February-26, 19:08, said:

Points, schmoints. :P If pard has 4 diamonds, there are 18 total tricks. :o


Pd will not have 4 diamonds but even if he did, your action over 3 is clear, especially at these colors.
You will never know if pd has 4 diamonds or not. You will also never know whether they have 9 cards fit or not. and even if it was guaranteed that everyone has 9 trumps, 18 trumps is ok to bid 3 over 3 but not 4 over 3. You are committing yourself to zero or top at MP and risking a huge number in partscore competition at IMPs. Posted Image

Stay away from D.T, you started to sound like him!Posted Image
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"


"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#12 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 02:41

No Norths H jump overcall in second so Iíd like to have zapped their 2H* by converting partners co-operative double to penalties by passing, but Iím 2+ defensive tricks short so it has to be 2S or 3D

Both bid allows 3H in by South by some sort of part fit in H but if so they are welcome: raising partners balancing bid is losing bridge

And for sure in both 2S and 3D we absolutely need to make them

2S: in M we might pinch an imp compared to m. We keep the level slightly lower. We know we have a S 5-2 fit and we cannot guarantee a better fit in D

3D: weaker hand has the trumps so might play better. Donít like strong hand on the table but might not matter if North is based mainly heart tricks

Sort of feel 2S could be a struggle because I have no ruffing shape in dummy

Can make 2S if we have a D fit too. If so...letís go there anyway-3D is safest choice for me
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#13 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 02:50

View PostFelicityR, on 2018-February-26, 04:10, said:

I was watching a genuine level expert game on BBO a few days ago, and whilst the bidding for the games and slams is good to watch I actually prefer the part score struggles. This one had the added factor of being vulnerable against non-vulnerable. What is the best bid?



Edit: This is IMP teams


This is tricky ground Partner has doubled sending the message "They can't make it!" If you pull the double then effectively
you are saying to your partner that he's/she's a liar and you don't trust them. If it transpires the double was justified then
you are going to sour relationships between you for a considerable time. Partner,however,suspect,must be given the benefit of the doubt
so the correct action is to PASS. If it goes pear-shaped you can always read partner the riot act later(!) :lol:
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster

Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


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by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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#14 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 03:33

View PostMrAce, on 2018-February-26, 18:07, said:

IMHO those who believe pd can have 5431 (any), should go to B/N forums and restart their bridge education,before deciding to hang around expert forum.



Several posters stated that 5134 is possible. And IMHO it really is if both long suits are terrible the singleton is an A with some more points in the 3 card suit.
Qxxxx,A,Jxxx,KQx comes to mind. Where I surely do not want to hear 2 from a 2425 hand when 1NT might have been cold and 2 is wide open.

But as I have to admit that I am no expert I surely can be convinced that you should always rebid 2 . But I would ask you to give some explanations instead of simply stating as a fact...

The other reason I'm advocating that this might be a 5134 hand where P chose to take an unusual pass instead of 2m is that the double just works better with 5134 hands. Firstly because your shooting at a wider target HCPwise. A 5233 holding more or less has to have 14/bad15 HCP for the double, possibly AJxxx,xx,Kxx,AQx. And secondly with the given examplary hand, the expert would have had taken the decission to likely compete to 3m vulnerable on a partscore deal. Where it is much more unclear whether the opps stopped in a fit (compared to 5134) and an own fit is no given. How likely is that?

I strongly disagree that X can be for penalties. If you set them by 1 trick you gained 50, but if you fail to set them you will convert -110 into -470 at IMPs. Not possible

regards
JW
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#15 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 04:12

View PostPhilG007, on 2018-February-27, 02:50, said:

This is tricky ground Partner has doubled sending the message "They can't make it!" If you pull the double then effectively
you are saying to your partner that he's/she's a liar and you don't trust them. If it transpires the double was justified then
you are going to sour relationships between you for a considerable time. Partner,however,suspect,must be given the benefit of the doubt
so the correct action is to PASS. If it goes pear-shaped you can always read partner the riot act later(!) :lol:


This is nonsense of course.

(1) The double is not for penalty. How can you have a hand that was not worth a 2 bid on the last round and is now worth a penalty double of the opponents' hearts?
(2) Even if, in some strange world, you played the double as penalty the implication that you are calling partner a liar if you pull their penalty double is ridiculous. You said something similar here and I let it pass. Doubling for penalties should be based on cooperation, not a one-sided decision by one partner. If you never allow your partner to pull a penalty double (and use terms like "liar" and "reading the riot act" in the process), your double will need to be rock solid and you will never make enough penalty doubles.
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#16 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 04:44

We really need to know what system these experts are playing. The 1N bid is not forcing apparently, which rules out 2/1. For all we know, they were playing 4 card majors, which puts a different spin on the whole question
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#17 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 05:39

View Postnekthen, on 2018-February-27, 04:44, said:

We really need to know what system these experts are playing. The 1N bid is not forcing apparently, which rules out 2/1. For all we know, they were playing 4 card majors, which puts a different spin on the whole question


The partnership I assume are playing five card majors. There was nothing to suggest otherwise. One was British, the other American. Which begs the question if 1NT is forcing, what does partner do with a 5233 minimum hand? Sorry i don't know all the intricacies of 2/1
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#18 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 08:02

View PostFelicityR, on 2018-February-27, 05:39, said:

The partnership I assume are playing five card majors. There was nothing to suggest otherwise. One was British, the other American. Which begs the question if 1NT is forcing, what does partner do with a 5233 minimum hand? Sorry i don't know all the intricacies of 2/1


Don't specifically know 2/1, but I can remember in the variant of precision I played you rebid 2.
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#19 User is offline   heart76 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 08:08

The off-topic first. I am not an expert but I'm posting since the topic is interesting :)

When you say the hand was played by experts, I feel I have to assume that a 15-17 HCP 5332 would have opened 1NT, or that they are using another range for that opening.
With at least 15 and a 5-4+, he would not pass 1NT, so he is limited to 14, and he would not have 6 or a shape with a singleton, since that would move away from NT anyway (someone disagrees above).
So I place W with 5-2-3-3 or 5-2-(42), which is probably 5-2-2-4. 1NT is a fine place to be most of the time.
But the more I think of it, the less I can figure out why one would takeout over their 2 at IMPs without a singleton there, which leads me to think that his pass over 1NT was some kind of a gamble.
That's probably one of the reasons why I'm not an expert :)

However, I like the reasoning of JanisW in her (?) first post, i.e. that a combined 7-trump suit would work better in than in as you ruff from the right side.
I think I would have bid 2, unless JanisW reasoning would have gotten to me too before clicking.
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#20 User is offline   heart76 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 08:09

View PostFelicityR, on 2018-February-27, 05:39, said:

The partnership I assume are playing five card majors. There was nothing to suggest otherwise. One was British, the other American. Which begs the question if 1NT is forcing, what does partner do with a 5233 minimum hand? Sorry i don't know all the intricacies of 2/1


The "1NT 100% forcing" version of 2/1 rebids in a 3-card suit. The "1NT semi-forcing" version lets you pass with a dreadful 5332.
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