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Is this forcing? If so what bids?

#1 User is offline   SimonFa 

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Posted 2018-February-25, 04:37

Vul v Non, Teams, 2/1, partner deals.

JT9532 KT6 763 6

1NT P 2D 3C
P P ?

1NT = 15-17 may contain a singleton (A or K) or 6 card minor
2D = transfer

Is south forced to bid in this situation? Obviously with 6 cards it's tempting, but what if its only 5?

If you do bid is system generally on and therefore 3D is still a transfer or does South have to bid direct?
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-25, 04:57

We would play the NTers pass NF and 3 as a natural suit, but others may choose to differ (I habitually play a weak NT where wrongsiding is not as bad).
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-February-25, 05:34

I suppose you could play that 3 is an invitational (or stronger) hand with long hearts and that 3 is just to play. Without any special agreements I would assume that 3 is natural and nonforcing and that 3 is to play. So there's no way to invite.

Responder is of course not forced to bid. I would bid 3 with this hand unless partner is likely to take it as invitational.

You should not play transfers in situations like this. It is an advantage to put overcaller on lead. Many players think that it is important that the strong hand declares and that this is the reason for playing transfers. This is at best a half-truth. Probably a myth created by lazy bridge teachers who couldn't think of a better way of justifying transfers.
Jesus! You have 7 count 5332 hand and pd passed 1 NT ffs! Are you planning to compete to 4 level or DBL a partscore with this shape and/or tricks? People who spend too much time in D.T topic started to talk like him --- MrAce
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#4 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2018-February-25, 06:57

Hi,

#1 2D may have been intendended as a weak sign off, why should a player
who wanted to play t the 2 level be forced to bid again
#2 If you have a 55 hand, that planned to show both suit starting with a
transfer, why should you now be unable to see it through?
3D is natural, showing values, ... due to lack of space it should be gf,

#3 3H could be either to play or inv., I guess to play, is more valuable, but
the NT opener usually wont have a 3 card fit, with suitable values

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#5 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-February-25, 07:46

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2018-February-25, 06:57, said:

#3 3H could be either to play or inv., I guess to play, is more valuable, but
the NT opener usually wont have a 3 card fit, with suitable values

We play that if the opps interfere low over a Jacoby transfer and the NT opener has super-accept values then he will make the usual 3 level completion with 4-card fit or double with 3-card fit and maximum strength. If he passes instead then responder can always bid a suit naturally at 3-level or Texas transfer his major at 4-level.
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#6 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-February-25, 09:15

Not forcing and I would pass at this vul.

It's not hard to imagine lho having short hearts and partner has denied a hand that will play well in them.
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#7 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-February-25, 10:59

View Postggwhiz, on 2018-February-25, 09:15, said:

Not forcing and I would pass at this vul.

It's not hard to imagine lho having short hearts and partner has denied a hand that will play well in them.


Ditto
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#8 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-February-25, 12:13

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-February-25, 04:57, said:

We would play the NTers pass NF and 3 as a natural suit, but others may choose to differ (I habitually play a weak NT where wrongsiding is not as bad).

siding hand is overrated as an advantage for transfers. The real advantage is you can show more hands.
If 3D is a real transfer you have no way to show HD 2-suiter


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#9 User is offline   tritonium 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 01:19

Play Lebensohl and make it easy on yourself.
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#10 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 01:56

View PostSimonFa, on 2018-February-25, 04:37, said:

Vul v Non, Teams, 2/1, partner deals.

JT9532 KT6 763 6

1NT P 2D 3C
P P ?

1NT = 15-17 may contain a singleton (A or K) or 6 card minor
2D = transfer

Is south forced to bid in this situation? Obviously with 6 cards it's tempting, but what if its only 5?

If you do bid is system generally on and therefore 3D is still a transfer or does South have to bid direct?

I wouldn't be remotely tempted to venture to the 3 level with only 4 pts and a stringy heart suit Definite pass.
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#11 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 05:26

View Posttritonium, on 2018-February-26, 01:19, said:

Play Lebensohl and make it easy on yourself.


LOL
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#12 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 08:52

IMHO (at these colors) playing 3h as "weak" makes close to zero sense. Fighting over a part score with a weak hand is looking for a disaster (when we could settle for the opps making a club partial) and where does one draw the line on "weak"? I think 3h should be considered invitational and this hand qualifies due to 2 factors. 1. The 6 card length offers a reasonable degree of safety. 2. Even though it is only worth around 6.5 the opening 1n bidder's hand has improved significantly being :behind: the club bidder and where the vast majority of the defensive assets are most likely located. Opener's hand range and card types still mater quite a bit so an invite is proper as opener may very well be stuck for a bid over 3c because they do not want to compete opposite a broke 2d bidder.

I would go with the following scheme
x = GF No club stop (may have other assets if 3n OR a penalty pass does not look appealing)
3d = natural and invitational (with GF just x)
3h = invitational
3s = patterning out with a hand that intended to bid 2s over 2h. For me that means at least 55 majors and invitational.
3n = club stop (little to no slam interest)
4c = splinter and 6+ hearts
4d = splinter and 6+ hearts
4h = A hand with short clubs that was going to just simply raise 2h to 3h after the transfer but has improved due to the club bidding by the opps.
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#13 User is offline   SimonFa 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 12:32

Thanks for the replies, very helpful.

Going back to my first question can this be a forcing situation as partner has limited her hand? I seem to remember reading on here some time ago that a limited hand can't create a forcing situation. (Justin Lall springs to mind, but apologies if it wasn't him)
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#14 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 14:38

View PostSimonFa, on 2018-February-26, 12:32, said:

Going back to my first question can this be a forcing situation as partner has limited her hand? I seem to remember reading on here some time ago that a limited hand can't create a forcing situation.

Here, opener is limited to 17 points and responder can have zero. So opener can't create a force - responder, if he has 0, will always be able to make the decision that we need to defend undoubled and opener should not prevent him from making this decision.

Compare to
pass-1
1-2
3*-?
*=Ingberman applies so this is positive, say 8-11 points.
Here, responder is limited by not having opened, but since opener has shown 16+, responder can still have enough to force (even to force to game).

Of course it can also be that the limited hand creates a force because it knows that we belong in some other partscore. A transfer by a passed hand is forcing even if you play weak NT.
Jesus! You have 7 count 5332 hand and pd passed 1 NT ffs! Are you planning to compete to 4 level or DBL a partscore with this shape and/or tricks? People who spend too much time in D.T topic started to talk like him --- MrAce
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#15 User is offline   RD350LC 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 16:04

View Postggwhiz, on 2018-February-25, 09:15, said:

Not forcing and I would pass at this vul.

It's not hard to imagine lho having short hearts and partner has denied a hand that will play well in them.

I would pass as well. We might have an 8 card fit, but if partner can open 1 NT with a high singleton, we could be on a 7 card fit-and no reason to bid. Especially red vs white.
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#16 User is offline   xbabarx 

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Posted 2018-February-26, 22:42

View PostMrAce, on 2018-February-26, 05:26, said:

LOL

Lol
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#17 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 08:14

View PostSimonFa, on 2018-February-26, 12:32, said:

Thanks for the replies, very helpful.

Going back to my first question can this be a forcing situation as partner has limited her hand? I seem to remember reading on here some time ago that a limited hand can't create a forcing situation. (Justin Lall springs to mind, but apologies if it wasn't him)


you open the bidding 1n (15-17) with Axx Kx AQxxx Axx (no opp biding) p bids 2d and you dutifully accept the transfer to 2h and next partner surprises you with 3d (gf natural). Your 17 count and 5332 hand have suddenly become so good that stopping short of 6d seems ridiculous and even 7d is on the radar. The point being is that under these conditions if might be quite acceptable for the LIMITED opener to bid 4n (unless the partnership has some special agreements as to how to handle these situations).
If responder shows 1 key card 6d is enough if they show 2 keys we should make one more grand slam try and if responder can show some life bidding 7d should be no worse than a 33 heart split and probably much better if not ice cold. This is admittedly a somewhat extreme example but even limited hands can reevaluate significantly as the bidding proceeds. Another might be AQJ AQJ JTxx xxx You open 1n 15-17 (again no opp bidding) partner bids 2d and you dutifully accept the transfer to 2h and p now bids 2s (playing this as at least 55 majors and invitational - not all will agree). You look at your 15 count and boring balanced distribution and bid 4s (this is an attempt to rightside the contract in case responder has some Kx that needs protection from the opening lead since we have nothing that needs such protection. It may not always make but the odds are pretty darn huge we have at least 9 if not 10 major suit tricks. You have to REEVALUATE constantly even if you have what appears to be a boring balanced hand. LISTEN to the bidding and decide if your hand has gotten better or worse or stayed the same:))))))
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#18 User is offline   hamish32 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 16:26

View Postgszes, on 2018-February-26, 08:52, said:

IMHO (at these colors) playing 3h as "weak" makes close to zero sense. Fighting over a part score with a weak hand is looking for a disaster (when we could settle for the opps making a club partial) and where does one draw the line on "weak"? I think 3h should be considered invitational and this hand qualifies due to 2 factors. 1. The 6 card length offers a reasonable degree of safety. 2. Even though it is only worth around 6.5 the opening 1n bidder's hand has improved significantly being :behind: the club bidder and where the vast majority of the defensive assets are most likely located. Opener's hand range and card types still mater quite a bit so an invite is proper as opener may very well be stuck for a bid over 3c because they do not want to compete opposite a broke 2d bidder.

I would go with the following scheme
x = GF No club stop (may have other assets if 3n OR a penalty pass does not look appealing)
3d = natural and invitational (with GF just x)
3h = invitational
3s = patterning out with a hand that intended to bid 2s over 2h. For me that means at least 55 majors and invitational.
3n = club stop (little to no slam interest)
4c = splinter and 6+ hearts
4d = splinter and 6+ hearts
4h = A hand with short clubs that was going to just simply raise 2h to 3h after the transfer but has improved due to the club bidding by the opps.


X as GF so that you can make a range of weak and invitational bids is not great. Expert standard treats X as takeout - at the 3 level it has to show a hand that can tolerate a penalty pass or the bid of a 4 card !S suit at the 3 level.
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#19 User is offline   hamish32 

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Posted 2018-February-27, 18:11

One thing you do not mention are your agreements over 3C. What would the 1NT hand need to act over 3C?

It makes some sense to play 3H as a 4 card raise / 3D as a maximal super accept / and X being a control heavy max with 3 card support with a small doubleton in C. This helps responder decide what to do as with those agreements with the hand you have or even one a little stronger pass is clear. It seems your partner may have a very good hand for H but still passes 3C leaving you feeling that you should bid with your limited values incase you find partner with something.

Additionally did you have a way to raise to 4H on the previous round? we like South-African Texas where 4C shows a transfer to 4H and 4D a transfer to 4S - we use these with weak hands where we want opener to play the hand. your hand is not quite good enough in those methods for a 4C bid in response to 1NT.

--------------
regarding normal methods after 3C on your auction a new suit is forcing / X is takeout / and 3H is an invite with 6 (since with GF and 6 you already bid 4C and with a GF with 5 you can X). You need a better hand to invite if partner would have shown support as described above - this hand is a clear pass.
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#20 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-February-28, 00:53

View PostSimonFa, on 2018-February-25, 04:37, said:

Is south forced to bid in this situation?


The simple answer is No. In my view the 2 transfer was all the hand was worth. Guessing at the three level vulnerable is not an option.
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