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next bid?? 2/1 ACBL

#21 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-February-21, 03:50

After the 1S my ranging shot is likely 6N in match points and 6/7H in imps

Ideally I’d like to ask west:

“Have you got the AS? How many spades have you? How many diamonds? Have you got the KC? How solid are your red suits?”

It would be lovely if we avoid a bad slam missing AS, a spade ruff, trump loser (ruffing out the Ds could expose that) and missing/bad placed KC, but I can’t find all that out

After the 3D I’m forcing 3S again- I doubt if west can bid 3N but I’m interested in more shape information, then the Black...

There could be a problem using the RKCB that you suggested next, but sometimes a problem can offer a neat solution too!

When I bid 4N west will have to rely on the general agreement that “without express agreement to a suit {we haven’t actually agreed hearts} I’ll assume that you are RKCB in the last suit bid” and if it went 3S-4C-4N then 5H now shows west the AS and the KC, making 7H a real goer

Failing that at least you can make a reasonable judgement of contract and level, without trying to ride a bicycle backwards as happens after opening weak in first position and then back-pedalling :)

Bon chance!
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#22 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2018-February-21, 05:25

Everyone please keep your replies polite and constructive. This is the intermediate-advanced forum, either say something helpful if you feel you have something to bring to this discussion, or don't say anything at all.

#23 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2018-February-21, 07:10

View Postdickiegera, on 2018-February-20, 09:00, said:

2 was intended to be a game forcing raise in hearts. Partner and I were not on same page. What should I bid next?
I chose 3 and partner passed. I was hoping West would bid 4 so I could bid 4NT keycard asking.

How should we have bid this?

Go back a bit. If partner misunderstood 2 then you certainly can't bid 3 because it is not forcing. In a situation where a wheel comes off ( I speak from much experience), you must be thankful your bid was not passed, and eschew any further "scientific" bidding in the auction. Who knows what partner thinks you have? If you originally intended to ace ask then you must do so immediately, or bid 4 if not.

Others have suggested 3 - but this obviously just confirms you have a long spade suit and that the opposition bid was a psyche.
Or 4 - probably a weak extreme 2-suiter.
You have no alternative to 4+ or 4NT - and with the latter then hope over the 5 reply he does not take your 5 signoff as asking for the Q of diamonds, if that's your method. 4NT carries this risk.
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#24 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-February-21, 07:36

PS (after the posting above)...

Actually it just struck me that the traditional move over 5H is 5N- “bid 6 with one top honour” and “bid 7 with two top honours”

Perfect!

Except west is still thinking we are in a C slam, not the H slam, so naturally west will just bid 6C

Now east must come out of the shadows and bid 6H

What would west make of this?

It would need an angel to suss whats going on and even if west did: would west actually move to 7 in the real word?

After the 5H East could count 6C+2S= 8 but can I guarantee 7 red tricks for 7N?

:) I feel a 6H+1 coming on whatever!
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#25 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-February-21, 08:14

View Postdiana_eva, on 2018-February-21, 05:25, said:

Everyone please keep your replies polite and constructive. This is the intermediate-advanced forum, either say something helpful if you feel you have something to bring to this discussion, or don't say anything at all.


Did you remove some replies? Because I did not get what you are saying.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"





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#26 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2018-February-21, 09:03

Partners 3 should be a trial bid as have been agreed and you should bid as if this is the case. So as has been said 3 is a sign off and so is 4 any other bid is a cue bid GF with slam potential or just go for 4N
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#27 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2018-February-21, 10:20

View PostMrAce, on 2018-February-21, 08:14, said:

Did you remove some replies? Because I did not get what you are saying.


Yes, I removed two rude replies.

#28 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-February-21, 11:25

View PostMrAce, on 2018-February-20, 16:17, said:

Starting 2 can backfire badly if the auction proceeds like..



or



We will have problem convincing pd we have a genuine fit and not just making a simple preference. (there are many other examples, including the hands where opener can raise you in clubs, which may cause serious issues)
And no, What Winstonm said makes no sense to jump to 4 over 3 shows such a giant hand and expect pd to go slam when you are the one holding all these aces and 2nd round control in opponent suit. That is as polite as I can express my opinions on that suggestion. So I am with you on starting 2

Regarding your questions; if 2 was GF in your agreements than we know who is to blame for passing before game. However, if 2 was LROB (limit raise or better) you needed to do something different than 3. I would bid 4 with your hand. You said you were hoping pd to bid 4 so you can RKCB it. Bid 4 now and RKCB when pd signs-off (better if he cues too).

Having said all of this, here is an important detail. Even if 2 was limit or better, opener should never bid 3 if he has a hand that would not accept game invitation. So you may argue that even if 2 was intended as LROB, after 3, 3 should be forcing. But good luck with arguing this in a pdship where simple cue is GF or can be limit has to be agreed yet.


Once partner takes a free bid over a raise, it's going to be pretty difficult for me to stop short of slam. With a non-descript minimum opener, the raise can be passed back to the 2 bidder. If opener wants to take a bid in these sequences on a trashy 2 suiter, that's opener's problem. I'm cueing next and converting any contract partner bids back to . Partner will get the picture.
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#29 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-February-21, 13:11

View PostTramticket, on 2018-February-21, 03:09, said:

Is it that you disagree with trial bids generally? Would 1, 2; 3 be a trial bid for you?

or is the problem more specific? i.e. partner has already shown invitational values (say 10/11+) and it is trying to be too precise and scientific to make a return trial bid? If it is this, then I tend to agree. 3 in this auction is pretty pointless as a trial bid. But we don't have any other use for the 3 bid - so if partner bid 3 I would interpret it as a trial. What would you use 3 for?


There are at least two sensible ways to play 3D in the auction you describe. One is as game-forcing with a diamond control; the other is better than game-forcing (i.e., slam-oriented) with a diamond control.

After then 2S bid, opener will bid 3H with all hands that do not accept a game try. The question is then on what sort of hand should opener simply bid 4H? There are two good options:

1. Bid 4H with all minimum accepts
2. Bid 4H as a "picture" bid showing no first or second round controls outside hearts

If you play 1, then 3D becomes a slammish cue-bid. If you play 2, then 3D is just a game-forcing bid showing a first or second round diamond control.

I personally prefer method 2 in IMPs. It's a lot more accurate. If you bid 4H on all minimum accept hands, what happens when responder has a rock-crusher? Cue-bidding at the five-level is NOT good strategy (you should do your cue-bidding and the 3 and 4 levels).

In MPs, I think it's a closer call, because although method 2 is more accurate, it gives the defenders more information about declarer's hand.

Cheers,
mike
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#30 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-February-21, 15:13

View PostMrAce, on 2018-February-20, 16:17, said:

Even if 2 was limit or better, opener should never bid 3 if he has a hand that would not accept game invitation. So you may argue that even if 2 was intended as LROB, after 3, 3 should be forcing. But good luck with arguing this in a pdship where simple cue is GF or can be limit has to be agreed yet.

If 2 is limit or better, I would think that 3 is some trial bid (long-suit or short-suit or w/e according to taste) and 3 says E's hand doesn't improve in light of the trial bid.

A hand that wants to make a slam try has plenty of other options. 3 or 4 or 4 or 4NT, maybe even 3NT. I don't think 3 needs to be forcing.
Jesus! You have 7 count 5332 hand and pd passed 1 NT ffs! Are you planning to compete to 4 level or DBL a partscore with this shape and/or tricks? People who spend too much time in D.T topic started to talk like him --- MrAce
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#31 User is offline   dsLawsd 

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Posted 2018-February-21, 18:13

Everybody has a good point here. I like 2C first, but on the actual auction 3D should show AT LEAST a shapely (5-5) minimum or a more than mini 5-4 or 6-4. Looking at my Kxx of spades on this bidding I think I just bid 6H. Yep, with my luck partner will be missing the heart Q and mis-guess after the S A lead. But there are not that many cards outside that partner can hold and most improve my hand.
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#32 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-February-21, 19:19

View Posthelene_t, on 2018-February-21, 15:13, said:

If 2 is limit or better, I would think that 3 is some trial bid (long-suit or short-suit or w/e according to taste) and 3 says E's hand doesn't improve in light of the trial bid.

A hand that wants to make a slam try has plenty of other options. 3 or 4 or 4 or 4NT, maybe even 3NT. I don't think 3 needs to be forcing.


I think you meant to say that 3D doesn't need to be forcing. It doesn't need to be; you can certainly play it as "help in diamonds." But it probably ought to be a game force. A limit raise is pretty well-defined. When responder makes one, it's generally not useful for opener to make a return game try. That's why 1H-3H limit and 1H-3D Bergen don't have room for them; you don't need them. 1H-3C Reverse Bergen has room, but 3D is generally played as slammish after 3C. There are better (slam-oriented) uses for the intervening bids.

1H - 2H, of course, is another story altogether, because the 2H bid is far more wide-ranging than the limit raise. Now both opener and responder need to be able to show additional features of their hands.

Cheers,
mike
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#33 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-February-22, 03:14

View Postmiamijd, on 2018-February-21, 13:11, said:

There are at least two sensible ways to play 3D in the auction you describe. One is as game-forcing with a diamond control; the other is better than game-forcing (i.e., slam-oriented) with a diamond control.

After then 2S bid, opener will bid 3H with all hands that do not accept a game try. The question is then on what sort of hand should opener simply bid 4H? There are two good options:

1. Bid 4H with all minimum accepts
2. Bid 4H as a "picture" bid showing no first or second round controls outside hearts

If you play 1, then 3D becomes a slammish cue-bid. If you play 2, then 3D is just a game-forcing bid showing a first or second round diamond control.

I personally prefer method 2 in IMPs. It's a lot more accurate. If you bid 4H on all minimum accept hands, what happens when responder has a rock-crusher? Cue-bidding at the five-level is NOT good strategy (you should do your cue-bidding and the 3 and 4 levels).

In MPs, I think it's a closer call, because although method 2 is more accurate, it gives the defenders more information about declarer's hand.

Cheers,
mike


Thanks Mike - I will discuss with partner.
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#34 User is offline   heart76 

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Posted 2018-February-22, 05:35

Several points for discussion with partner here...
* within the general rule to use the bid that best describes your hand, 2 seems to be the best candidate. Why do you want to delay establishing the fit if you already think slam? (18 + shape opposite an opening)
Even 3 mini-splinter is worse here, with the stiff A.
* what is 3 now from partner?
- IF --IF-- EVERY dead minimum bids 3, 3 has to show extras, maybe a 5-5 12 HCP, maybe a cue (K)
- If it says nothing about strength, I would read it as natural and trial (but I don't like the agreement)
* what after 3?
You are obviously interested in a cue, so 3 would be the case. Partner could have bid 2NT with 5332 and A, but could also have that card in a 5-5 that bids 3. So you can get 3NT (forcing) if he has it, or his cheapest cue otherwise.
If he answers 3NT, you should now go for 4, hoping to hear 4 for the K, which ensures no spade loser. Than you only need RKCB to choose 6, 7 or 7NT (MPs).
If he denies A and K, you have to consider which distributions make 6, assuming K is with N.
If he bids 4 for the K, you bid 4 or RKCB.
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