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Offbeat hand valuation question

#1 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-19, 13:12



In style (you open most rule of 19 hands unless there's a good reason not to) you open 1 in first seat (4 card but if only 4 will be 15+ points).

Partner responds 4 showing 4+ spades and specifically a void club aspirations beyond game, say 12+.

Do you feel your hand has got better, worse or stayed the same ? You have what might well be wasted values, but a lot of losers just disappeared.

The purpose of the question is that my choice of responses would be 4 (my hand hasn't got so much worse in the knowledge you have a void club that it's no longer an opening bid but I have 0 or 3 key cards outside clubs) or 4(it has got worse by enough).

I wasn't particularly happy with either choice.
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#2 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-February-19, 15:33

I don't think your hand got worse at least you don't have KQJ .
But for there to be a slam partner should be able to bid over your sign-off.
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-19, 15:42

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-February-19, 15:33, said:

I don't think your hand got worse at least you don't have KQJ .
But for there to be a slam partner should be able to bid over your sign-off.


Not necessarily, what does it need ? AKxxx, Axxxx, xxx or similar gives excellent chances, are you expecting partner to bid on with that ? He's shown all of that except the 5th spade
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#4 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-February-19, 15:52

I feel your hand got a lot better, but that isn't so difficult ;)
What happened in the end?
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#5 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-February-19, 17:11

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-February-19, 15:42, said:

Not necessarily, what does it need ? AKxxx, Axxxx, xxx or similar gives excellent chances, are you expecting partner to bid on with that ? He's shown all of that except the 5th spade

Yes, we bid all 20 pt slams.
Get real you can't cater to this or you slam bidding % will be 25%


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#6 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-February-19, 17:47

I would sign-off with 0 useful keycards i hold. Pd is allowed to hold hands like

KJxxx
QJxx
KQJx
Void

or

Jxxx
AQJx
KQxxx
Void

where 5 level is too high.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-19, 18:18

View Postpescetom, on 2018-February-19, 15:52, said:

I feel your hand got a lot better, but that isn't so difficult ;)
What happened in the end?


It wasn't relevant on the actual hand, I signed off and partner bid on, the auction proceeded 5-5-6, they didn't lead a heart, I ruffed out the diamonds and made 7.

He had AKJxx, xx, AQxxxx

And to MrAce, he shouldn't have the second of the hands you gave, I should have said, he should have one of the top 3 spades, although might bend that if he had a 5th one.
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-20, 05:09

View PostMrAce, on 2018-February-19, 17:47, said:

I would sign-off with 0 useful keycards i hold. Pd is allowed to hold hands like

KJxxx
QJxx
KQJx
Void

or

Jxxx
AQJx
KQxxx
Void

where 5 level is too high.


If partner holds these hands, the auction proceeds 4(0/3)-4, there is no issue, if partner has 3 he bids on, since you've committed beyond 4 opposite 2.
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#9 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2018-February-22, 21:00

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-February-19, 17:11, said:

Yes, we bid all 20 pt slams.
Get real you can't cater to this or you slam bidding % will be 25%

Maybe I'm misreading this, but it sounds like you mean their success rate will be 25%. If they're lucky. :D
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#10 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2018-February-23, 10:40

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-February-19, 13:12, said:

In style (you open most rule of 19 hands unless there's a good reason not to) you open 1 in first seat (4 card but if only 4 will be 15+ points). Partner responds 4 showing 4+ spades and specifically a void club aspirations beyond game, say 12+. Do you feel your hand has got better, worse or stayed the same ? You have what might well be wasted values, but a lot of losers just disappeared. The purpose of the question is that my choice of responses would be 4 (my hand hasn't got so much worse in the knowledge you have a void club that it's no longer an opening bid but I have 0 or 3 key cards outside clubs) or 4(it has got worse by enoyour ugh). I wasn't particularly happy with either choice.

Agree with 1 opening bid.
Partner's 4 improves your hand but as Mr Ace and Steve2005 point out, your lack of key-cards should give you pause for thought. It think it's a close decision. Nevertheless I rank
  • 4 = CUE. You might well regret your enterprise but with controls in the plain-suits and reasonable trumps, IMO, you should be wary of hiding your light under a bushel.
  • 4 = NAT but would you still sign-off with Q T x x x K x x A K x x x

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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-23, 15:27

View Postnige1, on 2018-February-23, 10:40, said:

Agree with 1 opening bid.
Partner's 4 improves your hand but as Mr Ace and Steve2005 point out, your lack of key-cards should give you pause for thought. It think it's a close decision. Nevertheless I rank
  • 4 = CUE. You might well regret your enterprise but with controls in the plain-suits and reasonable trumps, IMO, you should be wary of hiding your light under a bushel.
  • 4 = NAT but would you still sign-off with Q T x x x K x x A K x x x



This is not the system you're playing, as described above, you only have 2 possible bids. 4 my hand has been made worse by the club void and isn't really an opening bid any more, is clearly what you would do with KQxx(x), or 4 it is still an opening bid, I have 0 or 3 keycards excluding clubs.
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#12 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2018-February-23, 15:43

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-February-23, 15:27, said:

This is not the system you're playing, as described above, you only have 2 possible bids. 4 my hand has been made worse by the club void and isn't really an opening bid any more, is clearly what you would do with KQxx(x), or 4 it is still an opening bid, I have 0 or 3 keycards excluding clubs

Sorry, I missed that. With such an agreement, 4 seems automatic.
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