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How do you bid slam

#21 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-February-18, 07:50

It is very sad that many players do not know that once a suit fit of 8/9cards is established it is the LTC and not the HCP is to be considered.The famous hand where a pair holding a combined 5 (five)HCP makes a cold 7Spades is well known.We won a regional on the basis of LTC on the following hand.
West ,the dealer,opened a weak NT.
North holdings Qxxx-AQxxx-Void-xxxx overcalled 2C(LANDY).East after making a lot of enquiries Passed. South(me) holding x-xx-xxxx-AKQxxx also passed.West came to the rescue by 2D.North knowing that S holds six clubs for his pass bid 3Club.West now bid 4S.(having made a trap pass),I bid 5 Club and it went pas pass to West who doubled so loudly that the roof was blown away.Resultó5Cx made with one over trick.Our pair in the other room made 3NT when a club was not led by North. Count the HCP a total of 8 plus 9 =17 only.Count the losers North has six and South has 6.A total of 12 losers.18minus 12=6 .A correct estimate of the contract made.So thatís all to the so called HCP count which is only a crude guide for FLAT and no fit No Trump type hands.
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#22 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-February-18, 09:38

View PostWackojack, on 2018-February-17, 09:45, said:

Yes my robot partner was playing that 1 could show 3 then 1NT was correct. I normally play that 1 guarantees a 4 card suit. Then the bidding could go 1 -2 -3 (singleton) North has now said everything and will bid 3. Now I suppose South could blast 4N and bid 6 after finding 1 ace.

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#23 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2018-February-18, 11:55

View Postmsjennifer, on 2018-February-18, 07:50, said:

It is very sad that many players do not know that once a suit fit of 8/9cards is established it is the LTC and not the HCP is to be considered.The famous hand where a pair holding a combined 5 (five)HCP makes a cold 7Spades is well known.We won a regional on the basis of LTC on the following hand.
West ,the dealer,opened a weak NT.
North holdings Qxxx-AQxxx-Void-xxxx overcalled 2C(LANDY).East after making a lot of enquiries Passed. South(me) holding x-xx-xxxx-AKQxxx also passed.West came to the rescue by 2D.North knowing that S holds six clubs for his pass bid 3Club.West now bid 4S.(having made a trap pass),I bid 5 Club and it went pas pass to West who doubled so loudly that the roof was blown away.Resultó5Cx made with one over trick.Our pair in the other room made 3NT when a club was not led by North. Count the HCP a total of 8 plus 9 =17 only.Count the losers North has six and South has 6.A total of 12 losers.18minus 12=6 .A correct estimate of the contract made.So thatís all to the so called HCP count which is only a crude guide for FLAT and no fit No Trump type hands.


On the other hand, the main issue here is that they didn't establish the 9 card fit. Surely, even if people rarely mention the LTC, even a relative beginner like me knows you don't need nearly as many points for game/slam when you've got a good fit and some shortages...
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#24 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-February-18, 12:26

View PostDozyDom, on 2018-February-18, 11:55, said:

On the other hand, the main issue here is that they didn't establish the 9 card fit. Surely, even if people rarely mention the LTC, even a relative beginner like me knows you don't need nearly as many points for game/slam when you've got a good fit and some shortages...


Probably my fault but I always assume that after a reverse we are always using Lebensohl to distinguish between solid raises and not-so-solid and even poor hands. If that is the case, 3D after the reverse shows the top end of the 1N bid and a good fit, though not guaranteed to be 4 card, the furtherance of a slam investigation makes it clear that it is 4-card length.

This gets down to general methods - what type identity of bidding do you choose. The methods I am used to playing would have allowed a fairly easy ride to 6D - but that is only due to the fact that after 3D, 3H would be a mild slam try, and the 3S would be an cooperative acceptance of a that slam try, meaning the 1NT hand is suitable (in the acution) to cooperate getting to slam.

If you don't use cooperative-slam-investigation methods, this hand is harder to bid.
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#25 User is offline   JonnyQuest 

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Posted 2018-February-18, 20:39

View Postmsjennifer, on 2018-February-18, 03:54, said:

Many players play a 2H bid as only one round force. But even so one will get a chance to make another bid.
With 8Controls and a singleton in the minor suit a very slight overbid will be a jump shift forcing to game.However, playing with a Robot I shall just make the simple reverse bid of 2H.


So, you play some sort of bifurcated range for 2 and 3 here? I've never heard of jump-shifting into a suit that can be reversed into, since, with more than a minimum reverse (game-force) you can just refuse to sign-off in her weakness-showing sign-off.
What are your approximate ranges? If a Game-Force rebid (3 in your methods) with a massive 21HCP and control rich hand is a "slight overbid," what exactly would be required to make it solid?
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#26 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-February-18, 20:47

View Postfourdad, on 2018-February-18, 03:32, said:

Not only too lazy, but it fails to accurately describe the SHAPE of you hand to partner. Besides that, 2NT implies a club stop does it not?

I don't think so. 1NT denies a major suit and also denies primary diamonds support, so it will almost always have 4+ clubs.

I don't think the 3NT rebid is crazy. North has the ideal hand. It is usually difficult to bid slams that require one of the partners to have the ideal hand.

It might go
1-1NT
2-2* (good diamond preference)
3-?

and now North has to decide whether or not to drive for slam.
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#27 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-February-18, 20:55

It's not applicable on this hand, because your stiff is in clubs, but a useful gadget to have is the "self-splinter." That is:

1m 1NT
3x

where x is higher than m shows 5m, 4-3 in the other suits, and a stiff in the bid suit, with at least a game force hand. So if the diamonds and clubs had been reversed, a 3D bid on the second round would show the hand nicely.

This bid allows you both to (A) avoid some bad 3NT contracts and (B) find some tough-to-reach slams.

As others have noted, a 2H bid on the second round works a lot better than 3NT. You don't want to bid 3NT immediately here, both because 6D is possible AND because partner could have something like 3343 with three small clubs. You won't like that hand at all.

Cheers,
mike
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#28 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-February-18, 20:59

View PostJonnyQuest, on 2018-February-18, 20:39, said:

So, you play some sort of bifurcated range for 2 and 3 here? I've never heard of jump-shifting into a suit that can be reversed into, since, with more than a minimum reverse (game-force) you can just refuse to sign-off in her weakness-showing sign-off.
What are your approximate ranges? If a Game-Force rebid (3 in your methods) with a massive 21HCP and control rich hand is a "slight overbid," what exactly would be required to make it solid?


2H is 17+ or so. It's only forcing one round, but of course, if you have a game-force hand opposite a minimum from partner, you won't let the bidding die below game.

3H is a "self-splinter." It ought to show something like 3154 or 4153. Very useful bid to (A) avoid 3NT when your side is both short and lacks a stopper somewhere and (B) hit some fit-oriented minor-suit slams.

Cheers,
Mike
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#29 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-February-19, 03:56

View PostDozyDom, on 2018-February-18, 11:55, said:

On the other hand, the main issue here is that they didn't establish the 9 card fit. Surely, even if people rarely mention the LTC, even a relative beginner like me knows you don't need nearly as many points for game/slam when you've got a good fit and some shortages...

Quite right! And that is why I, in my earlier reply,said that the 3Nt raise by opener ,instead of 2/3Heart ,was a very clumsy bid that never allowed the pair to establish the nine card diamonds fit.And kindly note that my post was a general post and it was not directed to you PERSONALLY.Even so ,I express my regrets if you have taken it as personal.
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#30 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-February-19, 04:08

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-February-18, 12:26, said:

Probably my fault but I always assume that after a reverse we are always using Lebensohl to distinguish between solid raises and not-so-solid and even poor hands. If that is the case, 3D after the reverse shows the top end of the 1N bid and a good fit, though not guaranteed to be 4 card, the furtherance of a slam investigation makes it clear that it is 4-card length.

This gets down to general methods - what type identity of bidding do you choose. The methods I am used to playing would have allowed a fairly easy ride to 6D - but that is only due to the fact that after 3D, 3H would be a mild slam try, and the 3S would be an cooperative acceptance of a that slam try, meaning the 1NT hand is suitable (in the acution) to cooperate getting to slam.

If you don't use cooperative-slam-investigation methods, this hand is harder to bid.

Sir,It is very nice and pleasant to read your reply that after a reverse bid you are one of the majority players who employs the LEBENSOHL.It is very easy after that to bid the slam with further cue bids.
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#31 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-February-19, 04:49

View PostJonnyQuest, on 2018-February-18, 20:39, said:

So, you play some sort of bifurcated range for 2 and 3 here? I've never heard of jump-shifting into a suit that can be reversed into, since, with more than a minimum reverse (game-force) you can just refuse to sign-off in her weakness-showing sign-off.
What are your approximate ranges? If a Game-Force rebid (3 in your methods) with a massive 21HCP and control rich hand is a "slight overbid," what exactly would be required to make it solid?

The 2H reverse bid shows a 5 loser hand if a good fit is established in either D(which in some cases may be even three card suit) or H.The 2H reverse guarantees the first bid suit is 5 plus.(when as in this case the response is 1NT).This is forcing upto 3D/H If responder holds a bare 5to 7HCP.However with 8/9HCP responder must bid upto game.
A 3H jump shift reverse is an unconditional Game Force.But this bid requires the diamond suit (as the minor suit game means 11tricks )to be stronger than the one held.The jump shift shows a 4Loser hand as played in the FIT suit.(A hand which was a little weak for a 2Club opening bid.yet distributionally strong one as regards number of controls includung singletons or voids)A n HCP requirement is 20/21HCP( I personally do not like this in distributional ,controls rich hands)
However,I also know that most of the modern day experts have abandoned the jump shift of the description given above.They have developed their own variations which are mostly artificial.I have noticed quite a few artificial meaning bids when I watch SILLAFU (Benito Garozzo) who plays 24 top level deals every day at the young age of 91 (ninety one)years.
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#32 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-February-19, 11:40

View Postmsjennifer, on 2018-February-19, 04:08, said:

Sir,It is very nice and pleasant to read your reply that after a reverse bid you are one of the majority players who employs the LEBENSOHL.It is very easy after that to bid the slam with further cue bids.


Thank you.

I know there is a group of players including many fine ones who believe that a cue bid should command a return cue bid, but I have never been of that belief. I have always found the best way to bid is as a collaborative exchange of information. Perhaps in the end it gets down to personality types.
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#33 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-February-19, 13:41

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-February-19, 11:40, said:

Perhaps in the end it gets down to personality types.

I would hope not, otherwise you have something in common with Gib robots...
Just kidding ;)
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#34 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2018-February-19, 23:59

A simple reverse lands you in 6D. After 2H responder can raise D creating a GF showing 8-10 or they would use 2NT showing a weaker hand. A lebensohl treatment is a very useful tool and I highly recommend it.
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#35 User is offline   Wackojack 

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Posted 2018-February-20, 16:23

Thanks for all contributions, I ejnoyed the discussion
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