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Agree with 2 spade bid? 2/1 ACBL

#1 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 14:41

2 diamonds shows no Ace at most 1 king


Partner and I disagree on the bidding.

West says I should have raised hearts and 2 shows 5 spades.


I east don't agree .

Also would 2NT be a better bid than 2 or 2 hearts?
We play puppet stayman so west could still show the 5 card Heart suit.

Thank you
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 14:43

I consider raising hearts on xx an unusual and inferior treatment

I prefer 2NT to 2!S
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#3 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 14:58

Obviously, you had a problem else you would not have posted, but personally, I don't see a problem hand. I see this as a pretty automatic 2NT - depending on your response system, either an immediate 2N over 2C or a follow-up 2N after the 2D bid. If partner held a strong 4/5, he can bid 3S over 2N. In fact, once you agree that 2N is forcing to game in this auction, it becomes simpler to bid your hands.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 15:14

W has no trump shape, why not bid it like that, 2N rebid is auto.
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#5 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 15:21

I merged the two identical threads into a single one, deleted a dup reply by winston.

#6 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 15:22

Yes you should bid 2NT. I am not sure if 2 should promise five, probably not, but you have stoppers in all unbid suits and a balanced hand so 2NT feels more natural.

In any case, when partner raises you should realize that he might have only three spades, so you should bid 3NT now.

Raising hearts on a doubleton is not a good idea. Certainly not when you have a good alternative.
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#7 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 15:29

You can agree to what ever you want! 2 can mean 4+ or 5+ just choose.
But if 2 can be 4 east should suggest 3N with 4 and a stopper in both minors.
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#8 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 16:23

Given that you play puppet 2nt is an improvement instead of 2 or most definitely 2 but failing that, east should certainly bid 3nt instead of 4.
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#9 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 17:46

Edit: Whoops

Yeah, so opener should rebid 2NT not 2H as he has a 22-23 NT hand, and then you can do everything nicely.
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#10 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 20:13

Well, 4S doesn't look like a complete disaster does it? Did the trumps break 5-1 or something ugly like that?

Is 2NT over 2H a "second negative"? If so, you're a bit good for that and need to find something else, so 2S can only promise four. You had a chance to clarify your spade holding as being only four cards by bidding 3NT over 3S.

But Cyberyeti is right, West should start with 2NT as he is balanced, even more so if playing puppet. That would solve all problems - you bid 3C, then 3H-3NT and done.

ahydra

edit: Chthulu, I think you posted on the wrong thread?
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#11 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 20:34

As long as 2 NT is not a second negative, then it is right instead of 2 .

I also agree that 2 NT would be better than 2 by opener.
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#12 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 02:19

You can’t use 2C-2D-2H because that virtually sets the suit contract and the Hs are not so strong

Certainly 2C-2D-2N-3C-3H-3N is solid and secure

But I’d suggest you don’t. You know you are going to express west as a balanced powerhouse but you only have bare Ace in both minors- absolutely no intermediates. I’d treat the hand as a 20-22 hand. If east have a blizzard opposite west you fare better there. As it is 2N-3C-3H-3N is fine (I'd ignore easts 4 spades after 3H now and just go 3N)
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#13 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 03:32

The first wrong bid is the foundation for all future misunderstandings. As such it is meaningless to criticise 2 as the first wrong bid is 2. Clearly if you are playing puppet stayman, this hand is a 2N rebid. The important thing is the implications of choosing to bid 2. Either 2 is a 6+ card suit or the bidder has a secondary suit to reveal. Therefore, 2 is imo the best bid as it takes up no bidding space. (Indeed you might consider making it a second artificial relay asking p to define his hand further, a 2N response to 2 could show spades)
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#14 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 03:44

View Post0deary, on 2018-February-13, 02:19, said:

You can’t use 2C-2D-2H because that virtually sets the suit contract and the Hs are not so strong

Certainly 2C-2D-2N-3C-3H-3N is solid and secure

But I’d suggest you don’t. You know you are going to express west as a balanced powerhouse but you only have bare Ace in both minors- absolutely no intermediates. I’d treat the hand as a 20-22 hand. If east have a blizzard opposite west you fare better there. As it is 2N-3C-3H-3N is fine


Interesting to note that the Banzai Count is 32 which equates to a HCP count of 22. This counts A = 5 down to 10 = 1 plus 1 for a 5 card suit. Apart from the length, this gives a score out of 60 and can be multiplied by 2/3 to give an equivalent to the HCP value. I only bother to work this out for NT hands that are borderline, but I find it gives a concrete reason to agree that this is not a full on 23 count.

PS There is a short cut to working out the Banzai value. Start with the HCP already calculated, 23 add 8 for the 8 cards of 10 or more and 1 for the 5 card suit = 32
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#15 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 04:00

As is normally played the 2S bid is incorrect as it shows a 5 plus card spade suit.
The correct bid on your holding is 2NT.
It is wrong on your partners part to blame you for not raising hearts. A bid of 3H on your cards is a horrendous bid to say the least.
A slam is not that good a proposition as you need a heart finesse and break plus either a spade Jack dropping or 3-3 break or club King in position.Rarely a throw in with the last spade may work if that opponent also holds the club King.
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#16 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 04:01

Assuming you have no specific agreement to the contrary a 2NT rebid by responder is a second negative, so can’t be used here as you have good values opposite a 2C opener. As the bidding went, why not rebid 3NT over the 3S raise? It seems to describe the hand well. However, going back a round, what’s the point of playing Puppet if you don’t rebid 2NT on hands such as West’s?
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#17 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 06:50

View Postdickiegera, on 2018-February-12, 14:41, said:

2 diamonds shows no Ace at most 1 king


Partner and I disagree on the bidding.

West says I should have raised hearts and 2 shows 5 spades.


I east don't agree .

Also would 2NT be a better bid than 2 or 2 hearts?
We play puppet stayman so west could still show the 5 card Heart suit.

Thank you

I don't agree with East's 2 response. 7 pts is enough for a 'positive' reply and thus
East should respond 2NT The only downside of this is that East will become declarer in 3NT(the only sensible contract)and the lead
will come through the strong hand instead of up to it. East cannot support hearts with only a doubleton
and while 2 spades is feasible,it is not a consummation devoutly to be wished. 2NT is the preferred choice because
it also shows stoppers in the black suits.
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#18 User is online   gordontd 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 07:06

View PostPhilG007, on 2018-February-13, 06:50, said:

I don't agree with East's 2 response. 7 pts is enough for a 'positive' reply and thus
East should respond 2NT The only downside of this is that East will become declarer in 3NT(the only sensible contract)and the lead
will come through the strong hand instead of up to it.

That's one of the reasons that 2D is a better response.
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#19 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 08:11

View Postgordontd, on 2018-February-13, 07:06, said:

That's one of the reasons that 2D is a better response.


Is it? With honours in three suits there is no grea5 advantage in having the stronger hand play. A 2NT response looks fine to me, if it is part of your methods. It has the advantage of showing the general nature and strength of your hand with a single bid, which is no bad thing. The trouble with these 2D “waiting” Bids is that it can be difficult to catch up later and show you have useful values.
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#20 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 09:01

View PostGrahamJson, on 2018-February-13, 08:11, said:

Is it? With honours in three suits there is no grea5 advantage in having the stronger hand play. A 2NT response looks fine to me, if it is part of your methods. It has the advantage of showing the general nature and strength of your hand with a single bid, which is no bad thing. The trouble with these 2D “waiting” Bids is that it can be difficult to catch up later and show you have useful values.



WE play controls where 2
shows 1 control or 0 controls.
2NT shows 3 controls [3 kings]
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