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2/1, fit established - what is the 3 level for?

#1 User is offline   el mister 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 06:18

Basic question here - when you have a 2/1 auction that establishes a 5-3 fit at the two level, something like this: 1 2 2 2, or similar, what then should be bid at the 3 level? Can controls be shown?

I've read some posts that say 'the 3-level is for patterning out', but what does that mean when you've already shown 9+ cards?
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#2 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 06:36

then it means you bid naturally to show the other 4 cards.

something like this:-

bid nt with soft cards in diamonds
bid 3d with xxx or hard cards in diamonds
bid 3c wih 3 and 2 to a high honour
bid 3h with 5
bid 3s with 6

when you establish a minor fit, it's more about showing stops/concentrations for 3NT, until someone goes past it.
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#3 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 08:35

I think with a major suit fit it is clear to show controls. Especially if not playing serious/non-serious NT.
If your showing length it should at least be allowed to be ambiguous.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#4 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 10:29

In my experience the best choice is to combine the principle of fast arrival for game-interest-only hands with the use of the 3-level to indicate mild slam interest by bidding the lowest control or a card in responder's suit. A self-raise to 3 of the major can be used by agreement to either show a strong suit or as an ask for trump-suit help.

Or a self-raise to 3-of-the-agree-upon suit could be substituted for serious NT in these sequences, leaving cue bids to show only mild slam interest.
If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. - Herb Stein
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#5 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 11:17

View Postel mister, on 2018-February-12, 06:18, said:

Basic question here - when you have a 2/1 auction that establishes a 5-3 fit at the two level, something like this: 1 2 2 2, or similar, what then should be bid at the 3 level? Can controls be shown?


After a sequence like 1 2 2 we play that:
- 2 does not fix trumps (might be just 2 cards in a hand that is not willing to play 3NT) and asks opener to continue to describe his hand
- 3 or 3 fixes trumps and invites opener to start showing controls (or bid 3NT Non-Serious)
- 3 asks for a stopper
- 3 shows 6+ cards (the situation remains game forcing)
- 4 or 4 shows minimal game values and no interest in slam (fast arrival).
No guessing games here :)
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#6 User is offline   masse24 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 11:53

View Postwank, on 2018-February-12, 06:36, said:

then it means you bid naturally to show the other 4 cards.

something like this:-

bid nt with soft cards in diamonds
bid 3d with xxx or hard cards in diamonds
bid 3c wih 3 and 2 to a high honour
bid 3h with 5
bid 3s with 6

when you establish a minor fit, it's more about showing stops/concentrations for 3NT, until someone goes past it.

This.

When a major suit is agreed at the 2-level, "patterning out" is far more beneficial (in my opinion) for slam exploration than to begin showing controls.
Just describe your shape as best you can.
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 15:29

View Postmasse24, on 2018-February-12, 11:53, said:

When a major suit is agreed at the 2-level, "patterning out" is far more beneficial (in my opinion) for slam exploration than to begin showing controls.
Just describe your shape as best you can.

Showing controls without well founded slam interest or with too little knowledge of respective shape is a mistake.
But so is slam exploration based only on shape and fit, or not starting to show controls below game level.
A good compromise (in my opinion) is to use suit agreement at the level below game as a signal of slam interest and an invitation to bid controls (or non-serious or RKCB).

Of course any system has advantages and disadvantages, the really important thing is that both partners understand it.
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#8 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 17:51

You have two things you want to do:

A) Discuss whether to play 3NT vs 4S on this sort of auction without a direct raise.
B) Discuss whether we want to play a slam.

You've got 5 bids and two questions, so you can do a lot of stuff.
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#9 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-February-15, 13:01

I've always thought that one of the real challenges of bridge is finding a partner who looks at things similarly to the way you do and who has a temperament with which you can live. More than technical superiority or system, it is agreement with design principles that make a partnership work at its best, IMO.
If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. - Herb Stein
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#10 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2018-February-16, 10:25

Hi,

you need to communicate the strength / limit the hands, in the given seq.,
neither opener and responder but an upper bound to the strength.
This allowes the partnership to decide, if they really want to explore slam
options.
Another option is to decide, if you want to go for the major suit game or 3 NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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