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What does a pre-empt in 4th seat look like?

#1 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 03:01



IMPs
System: Four-card majors, weak NT & multi.

What are you expecting partner to hold (diamond suit quality / point range)?

Are you bidding? If so, what?

If you are passing, is there any holding where you would bid?
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#2 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 06:18

View PostTramticket, on 2018-February-12, 03:01, said:

What are you expecting partner to hold (diamond suit quality / point range)?


I am guessing 7 to the AQ and, in view of the fact that partners suit cannot be solid, an outside trick. Basically I expect to see a weakish 1 level opener (in any other seat) worth 7 tricks. Here you could be lucky, gamble 3NT, and find that trick is A - or it could be KQ and they lead a club.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#3 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 08:24

What ever you have agreed it looks like!
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#4 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 08:34

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-February-12, 08:24, said:

What ever you have agreed it looks like!


This is true - as always. :)

But let's just speculate that, even in a seasoned partnership, this particular issue has not come up before or been discussed (yes maybe it should have been!) ... What would you expect from your intelligent and knowledgeable partner (me)? :)
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#5 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 08:42

Comment the first: Many people would have opened your seat in first

Comment the second: 4th seat preempts are very constructive, especially at the three level.

At a base minimum, partner should have AQJxxxx in Diamonds and some stuff on the side.
(I'd expect somewhere between 10 - 14 HCPs

Comment the third:

Trying for game is imperative
For me, the only big question is whether it is better to bid 3N or 3

I lean towards 3H because the Spade Ace is sitting in my short major

LHO is lively to lead a major and more likely to lead Spades than Hearts.
I expect to cash at least 8 tricks off the top on a Spade lead.

If partner has no club stopper AND the opponents are smart enough to guess the club lead, well shucky-darn.

However, I wouldn't fault 3, hoping to draw a raise. However, this is likely to misfire if partner can't raise.
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#6 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 09:29

I play this something like 10-13 hcp and good diamonds.
I would have opened previous round.
Yes, I would bid game now (3 NT)
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 09:44

View PostMrAce, on 2018-February-12, 09:29, said:

I play this something like 10-13 hcp and good diamonds.
I would have opened previous round.
Yes, I would bid game now (3 NT)


It also matters whether you have a "natural weak" 2 available as this can cover some of the weaker end of this in 4th seat.
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Posted 2018-February-12, 09:51

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-February-12, 09:44, said:

It also matters whether you have a "natural weak" 2 available as this can cover some of the weaker end of this in 4th seat.


No we play a multi so no natural weak-two in diamonds available.
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#9 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 10:32

View PostTramticket, on 2018-February-12, 09:51, said:

No we play a multi so no natural weak-two in diamonds available.


In that case I'm passing but turn the KJ into the Ace and I would risk 3nt.

3 would usually be 7 of them otherwise and in my partnership it shows 11-13 or thereabouts and most often with shortness in 1 or both majors. Less concern with the opponents coming in when you can eventually force them to the 3-level opens 1.
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Posted 2018-February-13, 02:18

Thanks all for the comments. I can't remember ever opening 3 in 4th seat before.

I was West and the full hands were:



The west hand is at the top end of the range, but worth a 3 bid? Or would you have opened 1?

Partner judged to pass. In a way she was right - 3NT fails on a spade lead. But in practice, when the hand was played in 3NT, they received a club lead.
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#11 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 03:33

View PostTramticket, on 2018-February-13, 02:18, said:

The west hand is at the top end of the range, but worth a 3 bid? Or would you have opened 1?


Well, I am in two minds. It is top end, but only because of the Q. Who knows what that is worth.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#12 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 08:05

View PostTramticket, on 2018-February-13, 02:18, said:

The west hand is at the top end of the range, but worth a 3 bid? Or would you have opened 1?

I would have opened 1, but reading this thread has convinced me there is a case for 3 instead.
I'll have to discuss that with my partner though, because right now he would pass without a qualm.
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Posted 2018-February-13, 08:25

View Postpescetom, on 2018-February-13, 08:05, said:

I would have opened 1, but reading this thread has convinced me there is a case for 3 instead.
I'll have to discuss that with my partner though, because right now he would pass without a qualm.


I like 3, because you know that opps have some points and a likely fit in at least one of the majors.

But, I can't remember it coming up for us before, so we were both a little unsure if we were on the same wavelength! We were, but partner judged to pass. Fair enough.:)
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#14 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 11:26

View PostTramticket, on 2018-February-13, 08:25, said:

But, I can't remember it coming up for us before


4th seat pre-empts are on the rare side
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#15 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 13:34

easy 1d opener for me at IMPS (MP, where missing games is not as crucial, I sort of like 3d). There is just too much chance that 3n is merely on a dia finesse for 9 tricks for me to open 3d this way. Change the hand to something like Kx Qx QJT9xxx KQ and NOW the chances of making 3n opposite a passed partner border on close to nil but 3d should have reasonable play and it seems a shame to consider passing a hand like this.
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