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Continuation after reopening X

#1 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 13:44

MPs, all red, bidding starts on your right (5cM, kinda SAYC)

1H - - X
2H ?

KQx
Jxx
AQx
8xxx

What is X at that stage? Fearing it is for penalties, I bid 2S and ended up playing there in a 3-3 fit (should make seeing 4 hands, but -1 when nothing broke properly, trumps 52, clubs 41, diamonds 42). My partner had

Axx
Qx
KTxx
KQTx

Bad luck or...how to deal with this? Lots of C (and D sometimes) partials for 9-10 tricks.

Thanks!
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#2 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 14:26

The reopening double is wide ranging dependant on shape and there is no perfect answer but 2 is definitely not it.

2 is your longest suit but kinda sucks and blows but is my choice with a weak(er) hand. err 3 to make the bid sufficient (as ahydra pointed out) and that REALLY sucks and blows.

Double imo is most commonly played as competitive values (10 plus ish) with no clear direction and if partner views it as takeout or has a weaker balancing double you get to 2 if your partner has 4 of them or your best fit much more often. They often look like takeout with say, 2 4-card suits that don't want to play in the wrong one but always have 2 or 3 hearts in them with a decent point count in my partnership.

Sometimes they make but I would pass a double of 2 with the south hand.
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#3 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 17:33

View Postggwhiz, on 2018-February-11, 14:26, said:

2 is your longest suit but kinda sucks and blows but is my choice with a weak(er) hand.


2C is an insufficient bid - opener has rebid 2H.

I don't want to take the risk that 2Hx makes - despite us holding the balance of points, declarer may just make by virtue of his trump length. I would double (as ggwhiz says, this shows values, no clear direction, can even have 4 spades in a maximum). What happens next depends on agreements - you may play 2NT as two places to play (minors), in which case it goes 2NT-3C.

Both partners actually have some extra values. Did anyone manage to reach 3NT? I guess it doesn't make though, since opener rates to have the CA.

ahydra
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 19:23

View Postahydra, on 2018-February-11, 17:33, said:

I don't want to take the risk that 2Hx makes - despite us holding the balance of points,

No guarantee your side has the balance of points at MP.
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#5 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 19:24

I don't understand what the auction is and which of the four players holds the hand shown. Can someone enlighten me?
Jesus! You have 7 count 5332 hand and pd passed 1 NT ffs! Are you planning to compete to 4 level or DBL a partscore with this shape and/or tricks? People who spend too much time in D.T topic started to talk like him --- MrAce
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#6 User is offline   heart76 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 00:30

After 1 pass pass X / 2, for me you have:
- 2 with 4 cards and 5-6+ HCP (working though)
- 2NT, natural with good chance to stop twice (i.e. you were trap-passing if you have an opening); 3NT is also possible if you were trapping, but for me not with 12, I'd say from 14
- a minor, your place to play esp. with 5+ cards, e.g. something like Qxx xxxx Kx Kxxxx, and even weaker
- X, responsive, denying 4 and NT and usually 44 in the minors; this is a bid to the 3 level, so you need some 9+ HCP

In your case I would have X. Bad and 4333 but some extra points.
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#7 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 00:45

I have no idea what is your understanding if you double 2H.Frankly speaking,I would have bid a balancing 1NT and not a balancing TOD holding the hand of your partner as given.Some of us play 2Hx as 10 or so HCP and DENYING 4 cards in spades or else he would bid it on the present auction.The present partner then would have bid appropriately.
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#8 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 00:53

My style is N can only x holding either 4 spades or strong enough for another bid to adjust. So here it would have to be 1H-p-p-1N-p-3N. On a good day your KQ S is instead AC, on another day we go -1 on a H lead, as here
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#9 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 03:13

X can be card-showing or penalty depending on partnership agreement. Each has its advantages. On the hand you had, I'd rather have a card-showing X available than have to bid 3C. On the other hand (so to speak), if you have:

Kxx
QT87x
Axx
Kx

I'd sure like to have a penalty double available, wouldn't you? If X is card-showing, then you're stuck bidding 2NT with this hand, which may not be a good spot at all if partner shows up with something like:

AQxx
x
Kxxxx
xxx

I'd rather take the sure thing by doubling.

If X is penalty, then with the hand you had, I would bid 3C. What else can you do? You can't pass; partner could have a good hand. So downgrade your hand slightly for the bad distribution and the bad club suit and bid a pedestrian 3C. Seems normal enough.
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#10 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 10:23

This is a very tricky hand and I don’t think it makes a lot of sense to base your methods on trying to cope with it. For example, you might like the idea of a double in this position as showing values, in which case p will bid 3C and you presumably play there. But what if you make one of your small clubs a small diamond? I.e. KQx Jxx AQxx xxx. Now you end up in a 43 fit when a 44 fit was available.
Having said that my preference would be to use 2NT in this position as Lebensohl, with a double being for business. It may not completely solve the problems with these particular hands, but you can now bid 3C showing values, which might help.
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#11 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 08:36

View Post0deary, on 2018-February-12, 00:53, said:

My style is N can only x holding either 4 spades or strong enough for another bid to adjust. So here it would have to be 1H-p-p-1N-p-3N. On a good day your KQ S is instead AC, on another day we go -1 on a H lead, as here

A balancing 1NT bid is on 10 to 13/ 14 HCP.North cannot jump to 3 NT .There is a relay of 2C for range ask. .With
10 to 12 (bad) HCP the balancer bids 2D ,(Natural or with no 4card major),,2 of his major if he has the lower range and bids 2NT with the higher range. If N now bids 3C it is a sign off.Any other bid by N over 2NT is GF.This can help to discover a major suit fit at 2 level and play there or in 2 NT if no fit is found and balancer has shown the lower range.If balancer has higher range with a 5 card minor then over North’s any bid over the 2 D response ,except 3C,he can either rebid the minor or bid 3NT.This scheme is not simple, as a number of peculiar distributional weak hands that North can have and so anticipatory adjustmental bids are available.But this scheme could have helped the pair to play in 2NT .If West had not rebid 2H even then the shaky single guard may inspire some pairs to either Pass or play in 3C.Playing in 2Hx is indeed a risky choice.
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 08:49

View Posthelene_t, on 2018-February-11, 19:24, said:

I don't understand what the auction is and which of the four players holds the hand shown. Can someone enlighten me?



That help ?

I would X again card showing, partner can use 2N scrambling if weak without spades.
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#13 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 14:42

Thanks, CY.

A t/o double would be nice here but I think this double is penalty. It is really awkward without a t/o double with this hand so maybe I should rethink. Maybe at matchpoints it is not unreasonable to double even if it is penalty.
Jesus! You have 7 count 5332 hand and pd passed 1 NT ffs! Are you planning to compete to 4 level or DBL a partscore with this shape and/or tricks? People who spend too much time in D.T topic started to talk like him --- MrAce
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#14 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 15:44

The initial reopening double can be several hands but potentially that double is among the strongest bids partner can make. The problem is that sometimes partner will make the double on more distributional values than strength.

I agree with the initial reopening Double.

Bidding over opener's 2 rebid is a lot more problematic. Although you have values, there's no guarantee that you'll have an 8+ card fit with anything you bid. Playing at the 3 level on a 7 card fit usually isn't optimum. Bidding 2 NT would seem to show some kind of stopper. Double would suggest penalties and a stack of some sort. Any suit bid would be a wild shot at finding a fit. Another problem with bidding with this hand is that you know between opener and you, there are at least 9+ , so the other suits are less likely to break well.

I'm going to pass with this hand and see what partner will do, if anything.
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#15 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 16:17

View Postrmnka447, on 2018-February-13, 15:44, said:

The initial reopening double can be several hands but potentially that double is among the strongest bids partner can make. The problem is that sometimes partner will make the double on more distributional values than strength.

I agree with the initial reopening Double.

Bidding over opener's 2 rebid is a lot more problematic. Although you have values, there's no guarantee that you'll have an 8+ card fit with anything you bid. Playing at the 3 level on a 7 card fit usually isn't optimum. Bidding 2 NT would seem to show some kind of stopper. Double would suggest penalties and a stack of some sort. Any suit bid would be a wild shot at finding a fit. Another problem with bidding with this hand is that you know between opener and you, there are at least 9+ , so the other suits are less likely to break well.

I'm going to pass with this hand and see what partner will do, if anything.



Passing isn't likely to work out so well. Partner probably has 1-2 hearts and has 8-17 HCP (let's say opener has at least 11). His expectation is probably 1.5 hearts and around 11-12 HCP. He isn't likely to bid again if 2H comes back around to him (he'll only do so with 15+ or so).

So your side rates to have 23-24 HCP (maybe a couple less or a couple more). The opponents rate to have 8 or 9 hearts and around 16-17 HCP. Do you really want to let them play 2H? You're not likely to get it for 200 (opener probably has 6 good hearts and an outside trick, and you don't have a heart trick). Don't you think you can make something? Isn't that something likely to be 3C rather than 2S (partner would have overcalled 1S with five of them) or 3D (partner would have overcalled 2D)?

Yes, bidding 3C could turn out to be wrong, but I think in the long run you will be better off playing 3C than letting the opponents play 2H.
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#16 User is online   cherdano 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 16:30

Standard: Double is penalty.
Better: Double is takout.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#17 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2018-February-14, 12:34

Interesting comments, thanks all. And sorry Helen for the not too readable format.
Seems that there is no real obvious meaning on what the « responsive (or any proper qualification adjective) » X should be.
Points with no clear cut action is probably best facing reasonable opponents. Playing against ppl who would repeat with Q6th, probably penalty is a better use 🤣
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