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Suggested continuations after opening 2NT bid

#1 User is offline   hirowla 

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Posted 2018-February-10, 19:17

Hi,

I was after suggestions on continuations after an opening 2NT bid or 2 - 2 - 2NT (showing a strong balanced hand). Iím mainly after suggestions to help navigate to slam.

I donít need to know about the following when just heading to game
  • Stayman or Pupper Stayman
  • Major suit transfers
  • Texas Transfers


Things Iíd like suggestions on:
  • Handling long minor suits
  • Handling 2 minor suits
  • Handling 2 suiters, especially after a major suit transfer, so you can pick the suit youíre playing
  • How to "lock in" a suit, so Blackwood or cue bidding can be used, or whether the 2nd suit is chosen
  • How to tell when 4NT is quantitative rather than a Blackwood ask


I can answer most of these after a 1NT opening because there is plenty of room to show this, but not over 2NT because there is a lot less bidding room.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Ian
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#2 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2018-February-10, 21:37

View Posthirowla, on 2018-February-10, 19:17, said:

Hi,

I was after suggestions on continuations after an opening 2NT bid or 2 - 2 - 2NT (showing a strong balanced hand). Iím mainly after suggestions to help navigate to slam.

I donít need to know about the following when just heading to game
  • Stayman or Pupper Stayman
  • Major suit transfers
  • Texas Transfers


Things Iíd like suggestions on:
  • Handling long minor suits
  • Handling 2 minor suits
  • Handling 2 suiters, especially after a major suit transfer, so you can pick the suit youíre playing
  • How to "lock in" a suit, so Blackwood or cue bidding can be used, or whether the 2nd suit is chosen
  • How to tell when 4NT is quantitative rather than a Blackwood ask


I can answer most of these after a 1NT opening because there is plenty of room to show this, but not over 2NT because there is a lot less bidding room.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Ian


Long minor suits start with a transfer(4C* with Ds and 4S* or 4N* to show long clubs.)


Two minor suits use 3S* asking for a 4 card minor. Opener bids 3N without a 4 card minor.

Responder over 4m bids 4M* with shortness or 4N* with 1-1 majors.

Over openers 3N-4m* shows 6+ in the other minor. 4M* is shortness with 5-5.


For two suiters(after a major transfer) use 4N* by opener to attempt to sign off.


I like to use Kickback style RKC*(bidding one above a suit is RKC)


Opener can agree a suit by making "an advance cuebid" 2N-3D*-4m or 3S shows slam interest.

2N-3D*-3H-4m bids in the unbid suit agree the minor.


I like JackFit for virtually all balanced slam auctions. A combined

31+HCP(without any jacks) should make for decent slam 'if a fit is found.

2N-3H*-3S* or 2N-3H*-3N* have shown slam interest and responder can

pass if they needed extras.


2N-3H* asks opener if they have a slam suitable hand "after subtracting HCP for jacks."

3H*-3S* shows a sub minimum hand. 3H*-3N* shows I still have my opening range and 4m* upwards shows a +1HCP or better hand.


Using JackFit, other auctions make 4N* a non ace asking bid.


To use JackFit, you change your Jacoby auctions somewhat.

2N-3D*-3H-3S* confirms responder holds hearts. Not bidding 3S* shows the major transfer shows 5+ Spades.
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#3 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 01:34

1)Long minor: We play
2 NT ó3NT Tranfer to clubs.If responder bids another suit over Openers forced 4C it shows a double suiter with longer clubs and 4Plus second suit.
2NTó4C is a tranfer to diamonds.Any new suit over the forced 4D shows longer diamonds and 4Plus second suit.
We dislike Gerber and so a direct 4NT is a Quanitative bid and not Blackwood.To initiate a 4NT Blackwood we have to go through 3C.We use BARON and not Stayman.This allows a 4-4 fit in minors to be located easily.
We use 3D and 3H as respective transfers to 3H/S.
2NT ó3S is bid to show a hand with 5Spades and exactly 4Hearts.For showing 5/5 in majors.we first bid 3S and then if opener bids 3NT we bid 4Hearts to show that( If we wish to play in a major suit game or slam)
A 4NT bid by opener over responders double suited hands is RKCB with 6 key cards answers.After that we use the SPIRAL for Kings and Queens.
After the 2C strong opener and. a negative 2D If Openers jumps in a suit it asks for specific Aces and then the next step relay asks for specific Kings Or Queens depending upon previous answers.Our 2D over 2C shows less than 8HCP or less than 1and half honor Tricks.
2Có2D
3S- 3NT denies an Ace but shows at least one Queen or better.If responder has nothing of this he just bids 4S.
2C-2D
3Só3NT
4C( relay)ó4D/H/ 4NT show the D/H/C King.and 4S denies any King.A bid of 5C shows Cand S Kings,5Dshows D and C kings.The next step (except the trump suit I.e.5 S in this case)Asks for the specific Queens (opener is obviously searching for a grand slam)
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#4 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 01:44

And by the way our 2NT opening is 21/22 HCP.It never contains a 5 card Major as we hate not to disclose one.We require at least Qxx in every suit to open 2NT.Let me assure you that there is better understanding ,better contracts and certainly much better results .
Of course one can artificially construct hands where this or that system fails but I shall refrain from answering them.
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#5 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 03:59

The first major thing you have to do is decide which of 2nt - 3s/3nt/4c you are willing to use artificially and for what purposes . The choices you make here then constrain your options. The more artificial bids you use the more hand types you can handle somewhat better, but it comes at a cost. If 2nt-3nt isn't natural to play, then on a super common hand where responder just wants to play 3nt you are exposing yourself to lead directing doubles/non-doubles or revealing info about opener's holding, which to me isn't worth it, so I won't play schemes that involve an artificial 3nt.

It's probably worth ditching 4c gerber because it comes up so rarely and can usually be handled by some other sequence. One possible scheme is 3s = both minors (asking opener for 4+m) or single suited diamond slam try, 4c = clubs slam try.
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#6 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 04:07

3R = xfer, and completing sets suit. responder shows a shortage slam try or bids 3NT to show balanced slam try. 3S over 3D shows 5s and denies 3h. Retransfers (4d - 4h - 4s = strong spade raise). This is basically compulsory for any strong pair.
3C = 4 card stayman with smolen. can pattern out to show 5431 types if opener has no major fit.
3S = minor suit stayman. if opener bids 3NT, can continue with 4m to show 4 in a 45 type or bid 4M to show shortage in 55.
4X = 2 under slam try. if showing major, middle suit encouraging, 4NT RKCB. 4M = no.
If minor, 4NT = no. 5m = encouraging. Middle suit = RKCB.

if you're addicted to 5 card stayman then play muppet. this has the knock on effect that you have to play 2NT-3d-3S as denying a heart fit with 4+ spades which is worse. muppet (or any other 5cS) doesn't handle (54)(31) very well. in my experience getting to these 6m slams is big bucks. they're much easier with smolen.
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#7 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 04:51

Hi, a few suggestions, not necessary compatible with other tools you use... I hope you would find useful tips.

Minor one-suiters
Texas 3S for C and 4C for D. Either very weak and long (wants to play 5m and concludes) or slammish. Opener if not fitted goes back to NT, otherwise rectifies / names a promising suit in his hand to help responder assess the ę†matching †Ľ of the hands.

Minor 2 suiters
55 names C for Texas. If opener agrees C, then fine and D can be forgotten. If opener bids 3NT, 4D is nat, 55, slammish. Very weak freaks (65 or 55) can bid 5C direct, pass or correct. Very rare (but used it once haha!).
5422 just forget. 5431 you can name your major Singleton at the 4 level but you sacrifice your 2NT-4M meaning...

Major + min
You have to agree that opener only rectifies major Texas if fitted. Otherwise he bids 3NT. Then you can naturally introduce your minor. If opener is fitted, fine, otherwise heíll persist with 4NT. So you need to have slam aspirations.
Same if major is 4-cd only. You start with Stayman and if opener doesnít bid your suit, 4m is natural, slammish, no fit for openerís M. Slam tries for openerís M go through naming the other M after opener (4H on 3S, not too economical though, 3S on 3H, easier to cue bid).

Locking a suit / BW
All sequences above clearly say if a fit exist. 4NT is then BW if a fit exists. Otherwise it is quantitative if responder bids that.
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 06:41

First question - Are you prepared to use 2N-3N as artificial ?

What we do is probably not optimal because we're not.

We play a 5 card stayman variant where 2N-3-3N is 2/2-3, we actually play the non puppet version and it's cost us once or twice in 20+ years playing together.
2N-3 is slam interest, either both minors at least 5-4 or single suited either minor

We use 4 gerber and 4 5-5 majors either to play or strong slam invite+, mild slam invite goes thru transfer and bid hearts, if you're playing Texas transfers, I'd use 4 for the 5-5 majors.
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#9 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 09:24

First, I share your confusion. The problem arises only occasionally since first opener needs a strong hand and then responder needs a hand that is not easily handled by the usual stuff.

Perhaps a few auctions could be tried out. Let's suppose you are playing standard Puppet rather than Muppet or other variants.

2C - 2D - 2 NT - 3C - 3H - 3S. Whatsit? The 3H shows five hearts, and I assume opener would not have started 2C - 2D - 2NT if he also held four spades. So the 3S is not looking for a 4-4 fit. And it responder held a run of the mill hand with five spades and two or fewer hearts, he would have bid 2S at his first turn with strong spades or would have transferred to spades at his second turn with weaker spades. So it seems the 3S is not actually looking to play in spades. So what is it? Of course if you are playing Muppet the 3H denied even a four card major and the 3S denied five spades (with five spades responder bids 3NT so that opener can play 4S if he wishes).

It all gets complicated pretty fast. So I don't have any great answers, I mostly hope the complicated situations don't arise and take my best shot when they do. I will watch this with interest.
Ken
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#10 User is online   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 12:50

View Postkenberg, on 2018-February-11, 09:24, said:



2C - 2D - 2 NT - 3C - 3H - 3S. Whatsit? The 3H shows five hearts, and I assume opener would not have started 2C - 2D - 2NT if he also held four spades. So the 3S is not looking for a 4-4 fit. And it responder held a run of the mill hand with five spades and two or fewer hearts, he would have bid 2S at his first turn with strong spades or would have transferred to spades at his second turn with weaker spades. So it seems the 3S is not actually looking to play in spades. So what is it? Of course if you are playing Muppet the 3H denied even a four card major and the 3S denied five spades (with five spades responder bids 3NT so that opener can play 4S if he wishes).

It all gets complicated pretty fast. So I don't have any great answers, I mostly hope the complicated situations don't arise and take my best shot when they do. I will watch this with interest.


Playing Muppet Stayman, in which (2C - 2D -) 2NT - 3C - 3H denies a four or five card major, a rebid of 3S by the 3C bidder shows a five card suit in a 54 majors hand. That is the whole point of playing Muppet. With normal Puppet Stayman opener has to rebid 3NT to show no 4 or 5 card major, making it impossible for responder to look for a 53 spade fit below 3NT. This is why some play an immediate response of 3S to show 54 in the majors. If you play Muppet Stayman it frees up the 3S bid (I.e. 2NT - 3S) for other purposes. One option that I use is for 3S to be a puppet to 3NT after which responder can bid a minor, setting the suit and asking for key cards (minorwood), or show both minors by bidding a major suit shortage.
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 13:14

View PostGrahamJson, on 2018-February-11, 12:50, said:

Playing Muppet Stayman, in which (2C - 2D -) 2NT - 3C - 3H denies a four or five card major, a rebid of 3S by the 3C bidder shows a five card suit in a 54 majors hand. That is the whole point of playing Muppet. With normal Puppet Stayman opener has to rebid 3NT to show no 4 or 5 card major, making it impossible for responder to look for a 53 spade fit below 3NT. This is why some play an immediate response of 3S to show 54 in the majors. If you play Muppet Stayman it frees up the 3S bid (I.e. 2NT - 3S) for other purposes. One option that I use is for 3S to be a puppet to 3NT after which responder can bid a minor, setting the suit and asking for key cards (minorwood), or show both minors by bidding a major suit shortage.


You can also play a variant where you bid 3N immediately over 3 with 2/2-3 so 2N-3-3(no 5 card major, either a 4 card major or a third spade) and then you can either puppet or not over this. In the puppet version 3 would say "I don't have 4 hearts", partner would bid 3 with 4 spades, 3N without, 3 says I have 4, I don't have EXACTLY 4 spades (you bid 3N 4-4) and if partner bids 3N over 3 you remove to 4 with the 5-4 in the knowledge partner doesn't have 4 so must have 3+.
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#12 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 15:11

Quote

That is the whole point of playing Muppet.

Yes, certainly the point of Muppet is to cope with responder having five spades and four hearts and opener having no four card major. Playing 4 card stayman with smolen it would go 2NT-3C-3D-3H, showing the five spades. But in Puppet not Muppet it goes 2NT-3C-3NT and now what? Thus Muppet comes in. But just as Smolen after the standard stayman allows the 5-4 hand to show his shape and still allow opener to be declarer when he holds three spades, the version of Muppet I describe also allows the same result. After a Muppet 3H-3S, opener with two spades bids 3NT, while after Muppet 3H-3NT opener with three spades bids 4S and declares in his 5-3 fit. Assuming that they are on the same page about the meaning.

All of which illustrates that it is not sufficient to agree to play a convention by saying "Muppet?" " OK".
I believe the version I describe is "standard" if "standard" even makes sense in such a context.


Anyway, I think the OP has given us a topic where discussion is much needed.
Ken
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#13 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2018-February-11, 19:28

Stephen Tu has it dead right. I think it really comes down to, you have two flex bids unless you are a very serious partnership (3S, 4C) and if you're playing texas you also have 4S so the question is how can you use this space. Everything else (3C, 3D, 3H, 4D, 4H is showing the majors). We use 3S as a relay to 3NT and then:

4C Club single suiter
4D diamond single suiter
4H Both minors short hearts
4S both minors, short spades
4N 2=2=(45) slam try
5C both minors, no slam intrest

4S is 4-4 minors slam force. This structure isn't the greatest because we cannot disambiguate 2=2=5=4 from 2=2=4=5, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make (You could do that if you played 4H = short spades etc, but I'm not going to do that because it's too hard to remember).

2NT-3NT isn't a flex bid because this auction doesn't happen very often so you'll forget.
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#14 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 00:29

If you are looking for the latest gadgets to heaven- good luck-and if you insist on opening 2NT with 5/4major from hell :)- click down over this…

I’ll just offer something on your “long minor” question:

After simple transfer e.g. 2N-3S(=C) now the 2NT bidder have quite a choice of next bid-

simple transfer 4C (what that implies and what controls will you show)
straight 5C (what do you need to move on now)
4N (RKCB I suggest, bypassing 5C) and
e.g. 4H (breaking the transfer and cue bidding and denying 4D)

PS or even 3N
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#15 User is online   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 02:41

View Postkenberg, on 2018-February-11, 15:11, said:

[/size][/color]
Yes, certainly the point of Muppet is to cope with responder having five spades and four hearts and opener having no four card major. Playing 4 card stayman with smolen it would go 2NT-3C-3D-3H, showing the five spades. But in Puppet not Muppet it goes 2NT-3C-3NT and now what? Thus Muppet comes in. But just as Smolen after the standard stayman allows the 5-4 hand to show his shape and still allow opener to be declarer when he holds three spades, the version of Muppet I describe also allows the same result. After a Muppet 3H-3S, opener with two spades bids 3NT, while after Muppet 3H-3NT opener with three spades bids 4S and decl

All of which illustrates that it is not sufficient to agree to play a convention by saying "Muppet?" " OK".
I believe the version I describe is "standard" if "standard" even makes sense in such a context.


Anyway, I think the OP has given us a topic where discussion is much needed.


Thanks for this. I misunderstood your original post, hence my comments. Iíll now check with my two regular partners that we are all playing the same version of Muppet.
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#16 User is online   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 03:03

A rather common agreement is the following:

3S = minor suited puppet to 3NT.

After opener bids 3NT:
4C: clubs, slam oriented; opener bids 4NT to sign off or any other suit as a cue bid
4D; diamonds, same
4H: both minors, longer/better H than spades (i.e., spade splinter)
4S: both minors, heart splinter

As Stephen noted above, if you are willing to use 4C as an artificial bid, then you can have 3S represent one of the hand types (single suited or both minors) and 4C the other one.

Also, one hand that Puppet Stayman and its variants don't handle well is 5 spades 4 hearts. So some players use 3NT to show that hand. The only problem there is that if you want to just raise 2NT to 3NT, you have to bid 3S and pass the puppet 3NT bid. If you are prone to forgetting you're playing this gadget, you can have some disasters.

Cheers,
Mike
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#17 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2018-February-12, 06:09

View PostGrahamJson, on 2018-February-12, 02:41, said:

Thanks for this. I misunderstood your original post, hence my comments. I'll now check with my two regular partners that we are all playing the same version of Muppet.
3
And I had a typo ni what I said. After the 3C-3H-3S opener will always bid 3NT since responder denies having five of them. That's what I meant, not quite what I said. Perhaps (or not) it was clear what I meant since I correctly said that 3C-3H- 3S denies. five.

These infrequent auctions can be traps unless we write them down and go over them from time to time.
Ken
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#18 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 08:17

View Postwank, on 2018-February-11, 04:07, said:

3R = xfer, and completing sets suit. responder shows a shortage slam try or bids 3NT to show balanced slam try. 3S over 3D shows 5s and denies 3h. Retransfers (4d - 4h - 4s = strong spade raise). This is basically compulsory for any strong pair.
3C = 4 card stayman with smolen. can pattern out to show 5431 types if opener has no major fit.
3S = minor suit stayman. if opener bids 3NT, can continue with 4m to show 4 in a 45 type or bid 4M to show shortage in 55.
4X = 2 under slam try. if showing major, middle suit encouraging, 4NT RKCB. 4M = no.
If minor, 4NT = no. 5m = encouraging. Middle suit = RKCB.


Thanks, I have a couple of questions on this (this is new to me and very different to our current methods, so might be a silly question):
(1) If opener has a five-card heart suit and only two spades and responder has a five-card spade suit and three-card heart suit, am I right in thinking that the auction will be 2NT, 3; 3NT - where 3NT denies three spades? Is there any way of finding the eight-card heart fit?

(2) We include a balanced 21-22 in our multi. Would the structure need changing? (e.g. after 2, 2; 2NT where the 2 bid shows 3+ hearts)
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#19 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 10:41

View PostCthulhu D, on 2018-February-11, 19:28, said:

Stephen Tu has it dead right. I think it really comes down to, you have two flex bids unless you are a very serious partnership (3S, 4C) and if you're playing texas you also have 4S so the question is how can you use this space. Everything else (3C, 3D, 3H, 4D, 4H is showing the majors). We use 3S as a relay to 3NT and then:

4C Club single suiter
4D diamond single suiter
4H Both minors short hearts
4S both minors, short spades
4N 2=2=(45) slam try
5C both minors, no slam intrest

4S is 4-4 minors slam force.

An even simpler solution (as this section is also for intermediates) is for 3 to ask opener about his minors:

3NT = No 4-card minor, or bad hand for slam
4 = 4+ cards , does not exclude 4-card
4 = 4+ cards , excludes 4-card

This is easy to remember and quite natural. It will also usually ensure the opener remains declarer, although it might give the opponents some gratuitous information about his hand.
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#20 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2018-February-13, 11:32

View Postpescetom, on 2018-February-13, 10:41, said:

An even simpler solution (as this section is also for intermediates) is for 3 to ask opener about his minors:

3NT = No 4-card minor, or bad hand for slam
4 = 4+ cards , does not exclude 4-card
4 = 4+ cards , excludes 4-card

This is easy to remember and quite natural. It will also usually ensure the opener remains declarer, although it might give the opponents some gratuitous information about his hand.


Your scheme doesn't handle single suited minor well if 4c is Gerber as it would be for most intermediates. You have a club slam try, then partner bids 4, now you are inconveniently high to both show clubs and get useful feedback from opener below 5.

The 3S puppet to 3nt, then clarify is about as good as you can do when 4c is something else. If 4c is used for clubs, then 3s as minor suit stayman/diamonds can work well.
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