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1NT take out

#1 User is offline   euclidz 

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Posted 2018-February-09, 11:34

Profile:
Acol
Weak NT
Stayman
Red Suit transfers (i.e. not Spades)

Problem:
North opens 1NT. South has long Clubs or Long Diamonds and forms the view that 3C or 3D will be the best contract. What is the accepted bidding sequence that get to and stops at 3C / 3D?

(Please don't tell me that it should be 2S transfer to minors, that is specifically not in the profile).
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#2 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-February-09, 12:23

View Posteuclidz, on 2018-February-09, 11:34, said:

Profile:
Acol
Weak NT
Stayman
Red Suit transfers (i.e. not Spades)

Problem:
North opens 1NT. South has long Clubs or Long Diamonds and forms the view that 3C or 3D will be the best contract. What is the accepted bidding sequence that get to and stops at 3C / 3D?

(Please don't tell me that it should be 2S transfer to minors, that is specifically not in the profile).


Many play either 2 or 2NT as a transfer to a minor or both minors (on a pass or correct basis). But you specified that you don't play these methods (may be worth thinking about for the future :) ).

In the absence of these methods the traditional Acol approach used to be to bid 2 Stayman and then bid 3 over the response. The 3 bid is a signoff in clubs and does not promise a four-card holding the major. This method can be extended to diamonds. But you need to make sure that you are on the same wavelength as partner - most modern players will have different uses for this sequence.
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#3 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-February-09, 13:51

The original Stayman 2 followed by 3 was sign-off.
You could play 3/3 as sign-off if this works with rest of system.
2N could be an unspecified minor sign-off if you don't like 2 and you can also include strong meanings usually minor 2-suiters.

But 2 or minor suit transfers with 2/2NT are the most common.
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#4 User is offline   euclidz 

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Posted 2018-February-09, 14:48

thanks - that's as I thought - just checking
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#5 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-February-10, 02:10

A bid of Stayman 2C followed by 3C/D is considered to be a sign off as was played before the concept of extended Stayman bid of 3C was invented.Those who do not play extended Stayman may easily stick to the good old method.I am suggesting this as it is explained that the pair does not use the transfer bids of 2S/NT for transferring to the respective C/D suits.
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#6 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-February-10, 04:38

Just one thought: if the minor holder has no points you’d just pass, moreover your question implies that opponents are silent so the long minor holder have a few points...

On that assumption the 1NT bidder could easily make 3NT based on six solid minor tricks, a trick on the lead and a couple of fast tricks outside: 3NT makes but with sub minimum 25/26 points.

So the 2C-2 any- 3C might be treated a invitational and not just to play. The 1NT bidder is looking for at least one and better two top honours in the minor with three or four in the suit to go onto 3NT

(In modern Acol 1NT-direct 3 any suit is strong and slam try, so you wouldn’t be able to use it as an invitational bid to 3NT; hence the “false Stayman” bid suggested)
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-10, 04:55

View Post0deary, on 2018-February-10, 04:38, said:

Just one thought: if the minor holder has no points you’d just pass, moreover your question implies that opponents are silent so the long minor holder have a few points...

On that assumption the 1NT bidder could easily make 3NT based on six solid minor tricks, a trick on the lead and a couple of fast tricks outside: 3NT makes but with sub minimum 25/26 points.

So the 2C-2 any- 3C might be treated a invitational and not just to play. The 1NT bidder is looking for at least one and better two top honours in the minor with three or four in the suit to go onto 3NT

(In modern Acol 1NT-direct 3 any suit is strong and slam try, so you wouldn’t be able to use it as an invitational bid to 3NT; hence the “false Stayman” bid suggested)


This is absolutely wrong, you are MORE likely to want to remove the less points you have.

Basically your long clubs are worthless in NT if you can't get to them once you've extablished them and you could easily be making 4 more tricks in the minor.
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#8 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-February-10, 08:40

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-February-10, 04:55, said:

This is absolutely wrong, you are MORE likely to want to remove the less points you have.

Basically your long clubs are worthless in NT if you can't get to them once you've extablished them and you could easily be making 4 more tricks in the minor.

Especially as poster stated they are using a weak NT. Few points opposite 12 pt declarer will rarely get use of the long minor.
With a strong NT you might get away with this if your not too weak.
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#9 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-February-10, 10:01

View Post0deary, on 2018-February-10, 04:38, said:

Just one thought: if the minor holder has no points you’d just pass, moreover your question implies that opponents are silent so the long minor holder have a few points...

On that assumption the 1NT bidder could easily make 3NT based on six solid minor tricks, a trick on the lead and a couple of fast tricks outside: 3NT makes but with sub minimum 25/26 points.

So the 2C-2 any- 3C might be treated a invitational and not just to play. The 1NT bidder is looking for at least one and better two top honours in the minor with three or four in the suit to go onto 3NT

(In modern Acol 1NT-direct 3 any suit is strong and slam try, so you wouldn’t be able to use it as an invitational bid to 3NT; hence the “false Stayman” bid suggested)

This argument has no base as the conditions stated say Weak 1NT opening.Responder with a six carder minor with two of the three top honors and a likely entry outside will just bid 3NT straightaway.
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#10 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-February-10, 10:01

View Post0deary, on 2018-February-10, 04:38, said:

Just one thought: if the minor holder has no points you’d just pass, moreover your question implies that opponents are silent so the long minor holder have a few points...

On that assumption the 1NT bidder could easily make 3NT based on six solid minor tricks, a trick on the lead and a couple of fast tricks outside: 3NT makes but with sub minimum 25/26 points.

So the 2C-2 any- 3C might be treated a invitational and not just to play. The 1NT bidder is looking for at least one and better two top honours in the minor with three or four in the suit to go onto 3NT

(In modern Acol 1NT-direct 3 any suit is strong and slam try, so you wouldn’t be able to use it as an invitational bid to 3NT; hence the “false Stayman” bid suggested)

This argument has no base as the conditions stated say Weak 1NT opening.Responder with a six carder minor with two of the three top honors and a likely entry outside will just bid 3NT straightaway.
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#11 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-February-10, 15:12

It could well be that after Trams advice you have all you need!

But in passing he says 3C is just a “sign off." And your question suggests you have formed the view that 3C/D is best just after your partners 1N, I just wonder if I could offer a bit more...

To clarify this: “you hold a long minor suit with no points- do you bid 2C-2 {any}-3C, or do you just pass?"

By the by Jennifer suggest you just try 3N based on a long half decent minor and solid entry too. But your question suggests its not so strong. And even if it is surely invitational is better than just a punt?

But if Jennifer is with Cyber and Steve’s quite clear view that: "with zero points you go bidding to the 3 level?" Well thats helpful: I’d offer this:

Certainly if the (“no points minor opposite a WNT") opponents just supinely pass throughout then yes, you’ll get a great score (they have game)

But in a half decent field opponents will deal with a ("no points minor opposite a WNT”) perfectly easily. In practice you will just offer opponents a choice of either X or 3NT- two ways to get a rotten score without even knowing whether you could have explored 3N or not

Anyway, I could be wrong: your call: Good hunting! :)
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-10, 16:05

View Post0deary, on 2018-February-10, 15:12, said:

It could well be that after Trams advice you have all you need!

But in passing he says 3C is just a “sign off." And your question suggests you have formed the view that 3C/D is best just after your partners 1N, I just wonder if I could offer a bit more...

To clarify this: “you hold a long minor suit with no points- do you bid 2C-2 {any}-3C, or do you just pass?"

By the by Jennifer suggest you just try 3N based on a long half decent minor and solid entry too. But your question suggests its not so strong. And even if it is surely invitational is better than just a punt?

But if Jennifer is with Cyber and Steve’s quite clear view that: "with zero points you go bidding to the 3 level?" Well thats helpful: I’d offer this:

Certainly if the (“no points minor opposite a WNT") opponents just supinely pass throughout then yes, you’ll get a great score (they have game)

But in a half decent field opponents will deal with a ("no points minor opposite a WNT”) perfectly easily. In practice you will just offer opponents a choice of either X or 3NT- two ways to get a rotten score without even knowing whether you could have explored 3N or not

Anyway, I could be wrong: your call: Good hunting! :)


The problem actually is not the 0 point hands, it's when you have enough that they're probably not making game, but not enough that you ever want to play game yourself say QJxxxx and a stiff K where one heart lead and your hand may be dead from trick 1. You were pretty unlikely to be passed out by the 4th seat anyway with the zero count.
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#13 User is offline   Stefan_O 

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Posted 2018-February-10, 16:13

View Posteuclidz, on 2018-February-09, 11:34, said:

Red Suit transfers (i.e. not Spades)

Seeing that in our card, and not having any agreement at all re minor sign-offs, I obviously just have to pass 1NT.
Anything else might end in a complete disaster.

If opps balance with something, I might get a chance to bid 3m naturally on the next round.
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#14 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-February-10, 16:13

View Post0deary, on 2018-February-10, 15:12, said:

It could well be that after Trams advice you have all you need!

But in passing he says 3C is just a “sign off." And your question suggests you have formed the view that 3C/D is best just after your partners 1N, I just wonder if I could offer a bit more...

To clarify this: “you hold a long minor suit with no points- do you bid 2C-2 {any}-3C, or do you just pass?"

By the by Jennifer suggest you just try 3N based on a long half decent minor and solid entry too. But your question suggests its not so strong. And even if it is surely invitational is better than just a punt?

But if Jennifer is with Cyber and Steve’s quite clear view that: "with zero points you go bidding to the 3 level?" Well thats helpful: I’d offer this:

Certainly if the (“no points minor opposite a WNT") opponents just supinely pass throughout then yes, you’ll get a great score (they have game)

But in a half decent field opponents will deal with a ("no points minor opposite a WNT”) perfectly easily. In practice you will just offer opponents a choice of either X or 3NT- two ways to get a rotten score without even knowing whether you could have explored 3N or not

Anyway, I could be wrong: your call: Good hunting! :)


My post just gave a solution how to escape to 3C/D, not whether you should do it.

Let's consider first the situation where you hold zero points opposite the weak NT, but a six-card club suit. You know two things: (1) 3C rates to make more tricks than 1NT, (2) LHO will almost certainly double 1NT if given the chance. You have two choices:
- You can use whatever method you have agreed to escape to 3C (in this case 2C followed by 3C). On a good day, you might not be doubled and the opponts fail to find their game contract... It depends on your estimate of the opps of course. ☺
- You can wait until LHO doubles 1NT, then you can escape to 2C. Now both opponents know that the hand belongs to them and they are well placed to choose to double (but only at the two-level) or bid game their way. (Or slam?!).

The choice may be affected by vulnerability and your view of the opps, but I usually find it best to start the escape mechanism and muddy the waters for the opponents.

With a few more points it becomes a more interesting choice - but vulnerability will often be important. I would only gamble 3NT with sub-minimum values if I held at least two of the top three honours.
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#15 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-February-10, 16:56

View PostTramticket, on 2018-February-10, 16:13, said:

My post just gave a solution how to escape to 3C/D, not whether you should do it.

Let's consider first the situation where you hold zero points opposite the weak NT, but a six-card club suit. You know two things: (1) 3C rates to make more tricks than 1NT, (2) LHO will almost certainly double 1NT if given the chance. You have two choices:
- You can use whatever method you have agreed to escape to 3C (in this case 2C followed by 3C). On a good day, you might not be doubled and the opponts fail to find their game contract... It depends on your estimate of the opps of course. ☺
- You can wait until LHO doubles 1NT, then you can escape to 2C. Now both opponents know that the hand belongs to them and they are well placed to choose to double (but only at the two-level) or bid game their way. (Or slam?!).

The choice may be affected by vulnerability and your view of the opps, but I usually find it best to start the escape mechanism and muddy the waters for the opponents.

With a few more points it becomes a more interesting choice - but vulnerability will often be important. I would only gamble 3NT with sub-minimum values if I held at least two of the top three honours.


The other thing to mention is HOW you escape partner's 1N. For us, our 2 can be several weak or strong hands, so the waters may be slightly muddy what the next hand's bid means, whereas if he's allowed to X 1N or make a 2 suited bid it's a lot clearer.
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