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Pre-empted?

#1 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-29, 10:25



IMPs

Your bid?
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#2 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2018-January-29, 11:02

4s
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#3 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2018-January-29, 13:10

Yes, 4
'In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion.' - Douglas Adams
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#4 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2018-January-29, 13:58

I don't know how heavily I'm actually preempted. 4 can also be bid to make and bidding 4 can cause a lot of pain with such a rotten suit....
But I guess I'd bid 4, too. If I'm allowed to play there undoubled I feel that should yield a fine result.
The real problem arises if I get doubled, P will never run looking on xxxxx10xxJxxxx, where we belong in 5 or KxxxxxxKJ10xxx where we actually have a shot at making 5.
And if I run on my own P tables Jxxx,xxx,x,Kxxxx as dummy...

What would a redoule mean? It would be undiscussed in my partnership
I guess it cannot be meant to make, that just makes no sense whatsoever, because 4SX= would already be great, so it should show a playable minor with some tolerance for the other. If P has a strong minor he bids his minor if not he bids 4NT and I bid mine.
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#5 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-January-29, 14:06

View PostJanisW, on 2018-January-29, 13:58, said:

What would a redoule mean? It would be undiscussed in my partnership
I guess it cannot be meant to make, that just makes no sense whatsoever, because 4SX= would already be great, so it should show a playable minor with some tolerance for the other. If P has a strong minor he bids his minor if not he bids 4NT and I bid mine.

As we discussed (if he remembers :) ) redouble means just that, 4NT means that he can play both minors.
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#6 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2018-January-29, 17:45

Trying to look serious (but deeply terrified inside) 4S
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#7 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-January-29, 18:29

4.

Might suck but could be a double game swing, cheap dive etc. I once overcalled 1 and went for 1100 right there so this doesn't scare me.
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#8 User is online   0deary 

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Posted 2018-January-30, 01:07

Pass

I presume South hasnít got a spade suit as well as the 2H bid. And North has chosen not to Ogust 2NT so the direct 4H could have anywhere from a weakish pre empt to a very solid 4H game. There are 9 clubs out, so I could easily see N/S making 4H based on a H/C double fit

So 4S is an obvious bid, hoping for a S/D double fit? The trouble is on the H lead and ruff Iím already down to Qxxx trumps opposite quite possibly Honour xx. Where is my play now? If I play on D one opponent often ruff painlessly and another H. If I try to pull a few trumps before turning to the D they have another tempo or two with H taps. I can see an extremely expensive lesson in 4S doubled, no thanks. :)
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#9 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2018-January-30, 01:17

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-29, 10:25, said:


IMPsYour bid?

I rank
  • 4 = NAT. Practical gamble.
  • Double = T/O. Usually shows primary support . Hence not much of a distortion.
  • 5 = NAT. Trust in the long strong suit.
  • Pass = NAT. Could be right but anti-room.
  • 4N = UNT. But if you bid 5 over 4 it is unclear that you hold .

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#10 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2018-January-30, 02:51

I guess that I am alone but I think that 5D may be the percentage choice. As oppo lack diamond honours it is more difficult for them to double than 4S. If you do have a spade fit then 5D may come in too, and if you donít have a fit 5D is certainly better. Lastly, if oppo go to 5H you want a diamond, not a spade, lead.

Of course you can argue than you can bid 4S then bail out to 5D if doubled. Perhaps that is the best tactic, but it sounds a bit desperate to me, and you are more likely to be doubled in 5D than if you were to bid it confidently immediately.
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#11 User is offline   el mister 

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Posted 2018-January-30, 04:26

Those are some ropey spades I'm looking at. Don't mind either of 4S or 5D but I think I'd double tbh, which doesn't seem a popular choice. Must imply spades as Nige1 indicates.

Would 4N have play here if pard bids it in response to the X, showing a flat-ish hand and a couple of H stops?
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#12 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-30, 06:23



On this occasion, both 4 and 5 will go for big penalties. We conceded 800 in 5 - could have been worse!
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#13 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2018-January-30, 07:02

oh well, ***** happens
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#14 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-January-30, 07:11

We double weak 2bids very often with tolerance for the other major.Here partner has passed and my hand in isolation is worth fighting upto 3Diamonds.I certainly canít bid all alone beyond that level and I will pass this hand as I do not expect much from my partner.And I do not like phantoms.Some May venture 4S but one has to foresee that the weak spade suit is going to be tapped immediately.One ,then,will have to carry all those precious diamonds home.
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#15 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2018-January-30, 07:57

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-29, 10:25, said:



IMPs

Your bid?

We are in tiger country My highly developed sense of danger tells me to PASS
If you know where you're going,go there quickly. But I am in unchartered waters
So discretion is the better part of valour
It's not a sin to play bridge,but it's a crime if you play it badly(!) ;)
"It is not enough to be a good player,you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)
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#16 User is offline   Mkgnao 

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Posted 2018-January-30, 08:28

View Postnige1, on 2018-January-30, 01:17, said:

4N = UNT. But if you bid 5 over 4 it is unclear that you hold .[/list]


Unclear? In my book, 4NT shows a two-suiter (often minors) and pulling 5 to 5 + . What's the alternative to this meaning: bidding 5 through 4NT as a slam try in ?
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#17 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-30, 09:06

You provided the reveal before I asked the questtion that was in my mind, if it goes 4-P-P-X do you pull to diamonds ?

You're also unlucky that N took a very pessimistic view, if I don't take it a bit slower partner has xx, KQJxxx, xxx, Qx and 6 is laydown
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#18 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-30, 09:24

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-January-30, 09:06, said:

You provided the reveal before I asked the questtion that was in my mind, if it goes 4-P-P-X do you pull to diamonds ?

You're also unlucky that N took a very pessimistic view, if I don't take it a bit slower partner has xx, KQJxxx, xxx, Qx and 6 is laydown


Yes, sorry about providing the reveal too quickly.

The hand was played 24 times in a reasonably strong field and 11 pairs were allowed to play in 4. I was surprised by this - but I think you have answered mthis. Other North's took a more optimistic view and bid their hand through a different route (a strength showing 2NT or a splinter maybe?). In this case we are less likely to compete to the four or five-level!
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#19 User is online   0deary 

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Posted 2018-January-30, 13:38

Having ďcorrectlyĒ passed can I raise a nasty awkward issue after seeing the whole hand (after yet again an excellent question from Tramtick):

To open 2H South almost universally announces 6-9 points and a half decent suit in H. Moreover in first position vulnerable South should show top end of the range. Iím expecting South to open 8/9 points and a good suit

Here 1 of South points is a Jack in Jx spade and I think it should be ignored. So effective South opened 2H vul in first position on KJTxxx. Thats only 4 sure tricks, potentially 4 off vulnerable. I think this is quite wrong and in my personal view a psyche

North now has such a cracking hand! Surely slam should routinely be explored with a 2N bid? North didnít do so: went straight to game and no more! Sadly I think North must have been well aware that South could open sub minimum and has fielded that. That is so bad! And how can E/W know?

Poor East is asked to make a sensible bid after this. For my money GJepson made a very sensible 5D simply assuming 4H makes without any slam interest, and that bid will now be zapped

Iíd be curious what a Director would make of this?
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#20 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-30, 13:47

View Post0deary, on 2018-January-30, 13:38, said:

Having ďcorrectlyĒ passed can I raise a nasty awkward issue after seeing the whole hand (after yet again an excellent question from Tramtick):

To open 2H South almost universally announces 6-9 points and a half decent suit in H. Moreover in first position vulnerable South should show top end of the range. Iím expecting South to open 8/9 points and a good suit

Here 1 of South points is a Jack in Jx spade and I think it should be ignored. So effective South opened 2H vul in first position on KJTxxx. Thats only 4 sure tricks, potentially 4 off vulnerable. I think this is quite wrong and in my personal view a psyche

North now has such a cracking hand! Surely slam should routinely be explored with a 2N bid? North didnít do so: went straight to game and no more! Sadly I think North must have been well aware that South could open sub minimum and has fielded that. That is so bad! And how can E/W know?

Poor East is asked to make a sensible bid after this. For my money GJepson made a very sensible 5D simply assuming 4H makes without any slam interest, and that bid will now be zapped

Iíd be curious what a Director would make of this?


Don't judge other peoples' preempts by your own standards, look at their card.

Nothing to do with director (at least in the UK).

Provided 2 is natural in the UK (at least 4 cards) you can AGREE to open a weak 2 on whatever you like (xxxx, xxxx, x, xxxx was a classic first in hand I opened 2 admittedly nobody vul to swing something like 26 IMPs into the plus column recently). Our agreement is 0-10 4+ cards although it's very unlikely to be <5 cards first in vul.
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