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What is it worth?

#1 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 06:16



System: Natural four-card majors
Pairs

What is your hand worth? Do you re-bid clubs and if so, at what level? Do you raise spades on a three card suit?
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#2 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 06:27

2. opponents quiet. if partner does not have another bid after 1 then you are not sure to make game.
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#3 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 07:04

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-23, 06:16, said:

Do you re-bid clubs and if so, at what level?

2. LTC might indicate 3, but I think partner is going to be encouraged to try 3NT on many hands where that contract has no chance. You can always come alive if partner finds another bid.

Quote

Do you raise spades on a three card suit?

Most 4 card majorists don't, but it is a matter of agreement/style
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 09:23

Do you bid suits up the line ? Is 1 extremely likely to be 4333 or 5 spades ? If so I bid 2.
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 09:24

View PostLBengtsson, on 2018-January-23, 06:27, said:

2. opponents quiet. if partner does not have another bid after 1 then you are not sure to make game.


Yeah, but I'd rather not be in 2 opposite partner's 5341/5431 heap
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#6 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 09:39

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-January-23, 09:23, said:

Do you bid suits up the line ? Is 1 extremely likely to be 4333 or 5 spades ? If so I bid 2.


Yes, we bid suits up the line, so partner will not have four diamonds/hearts together with four spades. Partner would generally show a four-card spade suit before supporting clubs. But yes, partner will often have a five-card spade suit.
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#7 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 09:58

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-23, 09:39, said:

Yes, we bid suits up the line, so partner will not have four diamonds/hearts together with four spades. Partner would generally show a four-card spade suit before supporting clubs. But yes, partner will often have a five-card spade suit.


Then 2 it is as Cyber explained very well.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"





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#8 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 11:17

View PostMrAce, on 2018-January-23, 09:58, said:

Then 2 it is as Cyber explained very well.


I chose 2, using similar logic:



4 makes, despite the Moysian, but there are 12 tricks available in clubs and 11 tricks in no trumps. Nobody bid the slam (the standard is mixed), but three pairs arrived in 3NT, collecting 80% of the match points.

I guess that it can't cost for partner to bid 4 ...
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#9 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 15:38

Despite a number of experienced commentators expressing a raise to 2 as preferable, I think the decision is more borderline. At Pairs it is nearer 50/50, and at teams I would always rebid 2. I read an article by some experienced player not so long ago where raising responder's major on three cards was preferable to rebidding a poor six card minor, but with a good six card minor he advocated rebidding the minor.

This is the sort of auction where the bidding is unlikely to die after a 2 rebid - opponents are non-vulnerable and haven't entered the auction despite your limited values and void in s. So partner should have another bid up his sleeve, or the if auction dies - unlikely - the opponents surely will then try to balance.

I always believed that raising on a three card major should not be done where a more descriptive bid is available, and why bypass the good suit to do so? I can understand a propensity to be in a contract at pairs possibly to gain matchpoints but it feels unwieldy when another sensible option is available.
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 18:13

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-23, 11:17, said:

I chose 2, using similar logic:



4 makes, despite the Moysian, but there are 12 tricks available in clubs and 11 tricks in no trumps. Nobody bid the slam (the standard is mixed), but three pairs arrived in 3NT, collecting 80% of the match points.

I guess that it can't cost for partner to bid 4 ...


Would never in this world bid 4 on the E hand, if I didn't take it slowly, I'd bid 3N.

I don't have this problem because we would bid 1-2(inv not GF)-3(6-4 GF slight overbid)-4 etc
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#11 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2018-January-24, 02:44

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-January-23, 09:23, said:

Do you bid suits up the line ? Is 1 extremely likely to be 4333 or 5 spades ? If so I bid 2.

I cringe at raising partners major on only 3 cards. The benchmark for a trump contract should be
a combined minimum total of eight cards,nine are much better but with seven it becomes extremely awkward... after all, the
enemy has just as much as you do and if they should happen to split badly(more than likely) then you're facing difficulty. :(
It's not a sin to play bridge,but it's a crime if you play it badly(!) ;)
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#12 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2018-January-24, 03:07

I will happily raise partner’s major with three cards, rather than rebid a weak minor (or 1NT in some cases). I am in good company doing this; Mike Lawrence devotes a whole chapter on the merits of three card raises in his book “ Tips on bidding”. However this is not the time to do so. Your minor is not weak and, with only 11 points, it is extremely unlikely that the bidding will die in 2C. When partner does bid on you can support spades knowing that partner will have a good picture of your hand. Of course it is still difficult to get to slam, but at least you should avoid 4S.
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#13 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2018-January-24, 04:03

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-23, 11:17, said:

4 makes, despite the Moysian


If 3 card raises are at all common in your agreements, then blasting 4 without offering either clubs or NT as an alternative is appalling.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#14 User is offline   fourdad 

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Posted 2018-January-24, 09:10

To me the priority is to accurately describe your hand, rather than make a bid guessing what partner may or may not have. It seems obvious to me that, given the priority, 2C is the most descriptive bid.
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#15 User is offline   xbabarx 

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Posted 2018-January-24, 09:23

2!c my bid
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#16 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-January-24, 14:04

Depends what your major raise style is. Some theorists like three-card raises (Lawrence); others hate them (Meckwell). Personally, I would bid 2C, but that is because I only make three-card raises when there is absolutely no other bid available (after a 1s response, that generally means 3145). Yes, a 2C bid could lose on this hand if partner has 5 spades and a minimum response, but it could also win if partner has 4 spades, 3-4 clubs, and a minimum hand

Generally, partner is slightly more likely to have 4 spades than specifically 5 (6+ he's apt to rebid spades). But the fact that you play a strict up the line system negates this somewhat (might even push it in the other direction). Here in the US, most players bypass a 4 card diamond suit (or even a 5-carder) to bid spades, so 4 spades is going to be much more common.

Cheers,
mike
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#17 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2018-January-24, 15:51

It has been a long time since I played a 4-card major system. Having said that, it is clear that a 1 response on the East cards is just dead wrong. If partner cannot open 1 or introduce spades later after you make a forcing club raise (however you do so in your system) then you don't belong in spades.

From East's point of view, a club slam is not out of the question. Give partner a very minimum (some would say sub-minimum) 1 opening such as:




and slam is excellent.
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#18 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2018-January-24, 16:13

View PostArtK78, on 2018-January-24, 15:51, said:

It has been a long time since I played a 4-card major system. Having said that, it is clear that a 1 response on the East cards is just dead wrong. If partner cannot open 1 or introduce spades later after you make a forcing club raise (however you do so in your system) then you don't belong in spades.


The modern trend for 4cM systems is to bid them up the line, so when W opens 1C he isn't denying a 4cM. That said, I can see the point that a forcing club raise on the East hand is perhaps more descriptive than bidding the 98xx.

However, having never had a partnership with firm agreements about how to proceed after inverted raises (is it a stop? is it a suit? no, it's superman a generic force) I'd start 1C-1S; 2C and likely continue 2D (3SF); 2S-3C; 3H-3NT, possibly resting there or ending up in clubs (6 of them, since this is pairs where 5m= is as bad as 6m-1, wtf kind of scoring is that :)). A problem for East is that it's not clear whether we can avoid two spade losers - picture West with the hand he has but 3316 and now there's no way to avoid two spade losers.

On the actual auction, if your partner might raise with 3 cards and you have only 4 you must offer something else (here 3NT) rather than jump to 4S.

ahydra
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#19 User is online   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-January-24, 16:46

I'd bid 2 planning to raise next if partner makes a forward going bid. It isn't clear what partner holds at this point. If we're on a 4-3 fit and partner has shortness, could be terrible if the opponents force long hand ruffs in . There's also the possibility that partner could be 5-4 in the majors and rebids .
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#20 User is offline   Caitlynne 

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Posted 2018-January-24, 18:28

No question here: rebid 2S.

Any normal (i.e., non-special-meaning) rebid in clubs is unacceptable for two reasons: (1) it strong suggests fewer than good 3 card spade support while - to this point in the auction - the spade support is the most encouraging among the hand's assets; and (2)a 2C rebid understates while a 3C rebid overstates the likely playing values of the hand.

Beyond that, rebidding clubs focuses partner on clubs, so the suit purity is surely of suspect merit in that the good 3 card support for partner's long suit is obscured. If you rebid clubs, you basically neuter partner's ability to contribute intelligently to the discussion.

2S - a raise of a suit in which partner promises length - is the most encouraging thing you can do without overstating your honor values. It really is not close. You have a NICE minimum range opener in support of spades - yes, only a dead minimum 11 HCP, but a void, the top trump honor, and a club suit with promising potential to serve as a source of tricks.

Even 2H is better than any rebid of clubs. Partner will be obliged to show a fit or rebid a 5 card spade suit as top priorities. So if partner does rebid 2S, you could simply continue with a non-forcing but encouraging raise at only a modest overstatement of value. And, if partner can only bail (presumably with some Lebensohl-like contraption), you probably belong in 3C and will surely play there. It's an overbid for sure, but 2H produces an informative auction that empowers opener to reliably gauge the goodness of the partnership's fit. For that reason, the overbid is unlikely to earn a truly bad result. There is a big potential payoff too - partner might have 5+ spades with four good hearts. It does not take much to make a slam a strong proposition when there is a good heart fit (e.g., KQxxx, AKxx, xx, xx and 6H looks good while with KQxxx, AKxxx, xxx, void a combined 23 HCP grand slam is virtually cold. 2H might hit the jackpot.

2S= 100 points
2H = 40
2C = 10
3C = 10
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